Hesitancy and control rule me

[poppyseed]

Hi Mugunghwa

…..So I have two objects that I like in front of me (a book and a crystal).... Without any hesitation, I picked the book up. Now a thought appeared ( “are you sure?”) and I feel doubt. I want to pick the crystal up. I’m picking it up but I do not feel present with it. A thought is appearing about the book. I’m focusing on the crystal again but there are now more thoughts appearing about the book,”why do I like it? Do I like it? Do I like it more than the book?”. I don’t feel present with either object at this moment…I’m even doubting whether I like either of these objects. There is a thought appearing to just choose one.

So from what you are describing, I can see that there was an action happening (picking up a book) which was surrounded with a lot of stories – “are you sure”, “do I like it”, etc. But did any of the stories influence the action or it just happened on its own and stories followed trying to claim the action, i.e., “I made a decision about it”? Similar to the exercise about stopping the thought, there was confusion, tensing up and resistance because the stories did not fit with the experience. Can you see that? Was there a decision making at all or just thoughts about it?

OK....this is obviously not true at all……WHY DID I WRITE THIS? Thoughts are controlling the movement. I was looking at my hand and I mistakenly thought that my 'wrist' / a 'wrist' was controlling it.
… There was a decision to follow the instruction to flip the hand.
… There was no text instructing me to stop flipping the hand or when to stop…..I just stopped. 'I' made the decision to stop.

Can a thought do anything? Can a thought see a text? Do labels perceive labels? Are thoughts a solid thing/entity?
What makes the moving of the hand happen? Can the thought "I move my hand" move the hands? Try it!!! Can thoughts do anything besides describing what is already happening? Look at the clouds in the sky. Are they moving according to anyone's direction? How is the movement of hands different from the movement of clouds?

Did you watch the video?
https://vimeo.com/90101368?fbclid=IwAR3

Love
Rali

[mugunghwa]

Hi Rali :)

Here is the response to the question from the day before yesterday and today's questions. I have to say that these were very challenging questions for me and there are still some areas of understanding that are patchy.... Such as 'where does the decision come from? '

Can you take me through a biggish decision that you’ve made recently? How did it come to be?

A big decision I made recently was to end a long-term relationship. It came to be because I felt something in my gut months before the decision was made, like an uneasiness. I remember that I sensed this…. uncomfortableness but didn’t ‘know’ what it meant. I ignored this and favoured thinking through pros and cons and ‘what ifs’ (stories!). In the end, the sensations edged me towards the decision. The sensations and emotions/gut feelings might have had some influence...But I can’t be sure that I knew. It may be the story I tell myself after the decision was made.

Consider all of the conditions that were necessary for it to happen. If any one of those conditions were different, would the outcome have been the same?

I don’t know if the outcome would be the same. I don’t know. It is very difficult to know this when I look back on it, as it may now be thoughts telling a story that the outcome would be the same (or not).

How many of these conditions were outside of your influence?

The most obvious condition outside of my influence was the other person in the relationship and their thoughts and their decisions.

What was in your control (according to thought)?

According to thought, my decision making was in my control (i.e., being able to decide to end the relationship or not end it). My thoughts made up a story that I could control the outcome.

But did any of the stories influence the action or it just happened on its own and stories followed trying to claim the action, i.e., “I made a decision about it”?

The stories didn’t influence the action. It occurred on its own and the stories claimed the action. I get this now..

Can you see that? Was there a decision making at all or just thoughts about it?

I can see that…I can see it. It was all JUST THOUGHTS. I didn’t make that decision. With the hand flipping i didn’t make the decision to stop.

Can a thought do anything? Can a thought see a text? Do labels perceive labels? Are thoughts a solid thing/entity?

Oh…A thought can’t do an action, or sense things. No, labels can’t perceive labels. Thoughts are not a solid thing.

What makes the moving of the hand happen?

My brain? It’s not me and it’s not thoughts.

Can the thought "I move my hand" move the hands? Try it!!!

No, that thought cannot move the hands.It didn’t move the hands.

Can thoughts do anything besides describing what is already happening?

They can only describe what is already happening.

Look at the clouds in the sky. Are they moving according to anyone's direction?

No, the clouds are simply moving.

How is the movement of hands different from the movement of clouds?

There is an intention to move the hands, but there is no intention on the movement of the clouds. The clouds are simply moving.

Did you watch the video?

Yes! Decisions are made before a thought appears that you made the decision.

Love
Mugunghwa

[poppyseed]

Hi Mugunghwa
Can you please share a not so personal decision where you can describe the details a bit more.It’s difficult to work with a vague description. For example, cancelling your gym membership, or buying a plane ticket, or going on a holiday etc - something that doesn't happen everyday. Hold in mind the same questions:
How did it come to be? Consider all of the conditions that were necessary for it to happen. If any one of those conditions were different, would the outcome have been the same? How many of these conditions were outside of your influence? What was in your control (according to thought)?
Please give me MORE details about your decision making...

Now back to the other questions…

What makes the moving of the hand happen?

My brain? It’s not me and it’s not thoughts.

What is a brain? Where is it? How do you experience it? Do you have any experience of a 'brain' (whatever it is a label for)prior to lifting your hands?

How is the movement of hands different from the movement of clouds?

There is an intention to move the hands, but there is no intention on the movement of the clouds. The clouds are simply moving.

What is intention? LOOK! How do you experience it? Are you in charge of intention? Isn’t an intention of moving the hands simply the beginning of moving the hands? Aren’t the hands simply moving as well? LOOK!

Did you watch the video?

Yes! Decisions are made before a thought appears that you made the decision.

Does decision making exist at all? Isn’t it possible that things just happen following the natural outcome of a situation (cause and effect), and thoughts appear with them as decisions (i.e., decisions = thoughts)?
Love
Rali

[mugunghwa]

Hi Rali,

I'm just not getting this at all...
I need another day to answer these questions, please. I'm very much in thought whenever I try to answer and my progress has stalled.

I will reply tomorrow.

Thank you for your patience.

Love
Mugunghwa

[poppyseed]

Hi Mungunghwa
If you are stuck, tell me where you are stuck so we can resolve it together. I'm not here to test you but to guide you. Let's keep the intensity of the inquiry
Love
Rali

[mugunghwa]

Hi Rali,

Sure..I can feel the frustration rising again, but you're right, it's best to keep the intensity of the inquiry instead of taking a break. I don't want to lose what is happening now. It feels like a test, but this is just a thought appearing.

Can you please share a not so personal decision where you can describe the details a bit more.It’s difficult to work with a vague description. For example, cancelling your gym membership, or buying a plane ticket, or going on a holiday etc - something that doesn't happen everyday. Hold in mind the same questions:

OK. I will use another example of accepting a job offer.

How did it come to be? Consider all of the conditions that were necessary for it to happen.

The conditions necessary for it to happen were being interested in the job role, getting along well with potential colleagues, good pay and location and the ‘right’ timing. Is this what you mean by conditions?

If any one of those conditions were different, would the outcome have been the same?

The outcome may not have been the same (i.e not accepting the job offer) if one of those conditions (such as pay) were different.

How many of these conditions were outside of your influence?

All of these conditions were outside my influence

What was in your control (according to thought)?

According to thought, my ability to decide whether to accept the job offer or not was in my control.

What is a brain? Where is it? How do you experience it? Do you have any experience of a 'brain' (whatever it is a label for)prior to lifting your hands?

THIS is where the block is. So you asked:

What makes the moving of the hand happen?

and my response was:

My brain? It’s not me and it’s not thoughts. I tried answering it again and I honestly don’t know what makes the moving on the hand happen. If it’s not my brain or my thoughts then I don’t know. And this question is making me feel stuck…like I can’t move on.

So I'm attempting this question again:

What is a brain? Where is it? How do you experience it?

I can’t directly experience the brain. I can’t see it. Sense it/touch it. It’s just a label.

Do you have any experience of a 'brain' (whatever it is a label for)prior to lifting your hands?

What is intention? LOOK! How do you experience it?

I don’t know what i’m looking at….I experience intention as a thought.

Are you in charge of intention?

No…It’s a thought.

Isn’t the intention of moving the hands simply the beginning of moving the hands? Aren’t the hands simply moving as well? LOOK!

So, now I look again, I see that an intention in the start of the movement. It’s not first ‘an intention’ then ‘movement’. The hands are moving, but I am still very confused. The hands can't just move by themselves. The hands did not decide for themselves to stop. There’s something that made them stop. If it’s not me, not ‘my brain’, not intention, not thoughts...Then, I don’t know. I’m looking and my hand is turning up and down, that is all I can see. Am I missing something?

Does decision making exist at all? Isn’t it possible that things just happen following the natural outcome of a situation (cause and effect), and thoughts appear with them as decisions (i.e., decisions = thoughts)?

Decision making does not exist because no one is “making” a decision. It’s an outcome. After that outcome happens, thoughts appear telling a story that someone (me) had control over that outcome and made that decision happen.

love
Mungunghwa

[poppyseed]

Hi Mungunghwa

Thank you so much for your perseverance!

The outcome may not have been the same (i.e not accepting the job offer) if one of those conditions (such as pay) were different…
…All of these conditions were outside my influence

So, if all of these conditions and the outcome did not depend on your “decision” was there a decision at all? Or thought just announced/described what was happening? Simply cause and effect playing out :)

If it’s not my brain or my thoughts then I don’t know. And this question is making me feel stuck…like I can’t move on.

The problem here is that you rely on knowledge/thought to find the answer. What happens in your DE? You said yourself that hands are just turning. That’s IT! Again, why does the wind blow? It just blows. Yes we can say it happens as a result of previous events but there’s no entity “wind” that does the blowing. There is no wind that decides to blow. It’s just language. What is “moving of the hands” in DE? We’ve seen that it’s just a sensation, labelled “hands moving” + colour/shape labelled “hands moving”. So, what makes the sensations to appear? What makes seeing to appear? LOOK! Is there anything that causes anything to appear? Do cause and effect exist outside of thought content? Thought comes to describe that things are happening and why they are happening, but in DE things are just happening. Is the description/explanation/label needed for things to happen?

I don’t know what i’m looking at….I experience intention as a thought.

Very good!!! Intention is a thought!

The hands can't just move by themselves. The hands did not decide for themselves to stop. There’s something that made them stop.

Why not? Because thought says so? What is your DE?

Decision making does not exist because no one is “making” a decision. It’s an outcome. After that outcome happens, thoughts appear telling a story that someone (me) had control over that outcome and made that decision happen.

Very good! If everything is an outcome and thoughts appear as a “decision” why can’t the movement of the hands be an outcome? Why can’t the stopping of the movement be an outcome of exhausting the cause?

Stay with these questions, but LOOK don’t think
And please if you get stuck somewhere, tell me so I can find pointers that can resolve this.
Love
Rali

[mugunghwa]

Hi Rali,

Thank you!

OK - I'm LOOKING

So, if all of these conditions and the outcome did not depend on your “decision” was there a decision at all? Or thought just announced/described what was happening? Simply cause and effect playing out :)

Yes, cause and effect with thoughts describing the cause and effect. There was actually no decision AT ALL.

What happens in your DE?

So in my direct experience when “my hands” are turning all that can be seen is the hands turning. I can also feel and see the surface (“table”) beneath the hands where they are placed. Does this count as direct experience in this situation?

What makes the sensations to appear? What makes seeing to appear? LOOK!

Nothing makes the sensations appear. Sensations are ‘there’. But it’s thoughts that make seeing appear.

Is the description/explanation/label needed for things to happen?

Absolutely not. Things just happen. The “hands” are just turning. Going back to accepting the job offer example - this was cause and effect just happening. The description/explanation and label that the cause and effect is a ‘decision’ that ‘I made’, did not make the cause and effect happen. It happened regardless of the label and story around it.

Why not? Because thought says so? What is your DE?

Ah…That's a thought — “the hands can’t just move by themselves”. I realise that this is not DE at all! My DE is that the hands just stopped….That’s it.

If everything is an outcome and thoughts appear as a “decision” why can’t the movement of the hands be an outcome?

……The movement of the hand is an outcome.

Why can’t the stopping of the movement be an outcome of exhausting the cause?

Stopping of the hand, just like movement of the hand can also be an outcome. Both can be outcomes.

Love
Mugunghwa

[poppyseed]

Hi Mugunghwa
Very good!

So in my direct experience when “my hands” are turning all that can be seen is the hands turning. I can also feel and see the surface (“table”) beneath the hands where they are placed. Does this count as direct experience in this situation?

Of course, it does! It’s actually all inseparable but thought labels only certain colours/shapes into “things”. We’ll examine this a bit closer later.

Nothing makes the sensations appear. Sensations are ‘there’. But it’s thoughts that make seeing appear.

How does the thought make the seeing appear? Can a thought do anything? Can a thought “I see my hands” see the hands? Later you said that labels are not necessary for ‘things’ to happen, so what makes seeing different?
Love
Rali

[mugunghwa]

Hello Rali :)

How does the thought make the seeing appear? Can a thought do anything?

I see another contradiction! A thought cannot make the seeing appear. The seeing is already happening without the thought. A thought can’t do anything.

Can a thought “I see my hands” see the hands?

No, because a thought cannot sense anything. It is there to describe/explain the sensation of looking/seeing; but a thought cannot ‘see’.

Later you said that labels are not necessary for ‘things’ to happen, so what makes seeing different?

I’m looking at my hands again as I realise there was some contradiction with what I said previously - which is ok :) I was (and maybe I still am) confused because while looking at ‘the hands’ a thought appeared labelling the seeing as ‘hands’....But then I just said that “a thought can’t do anything”, but it can label a sensation… so it can do something. This area is still not clear for me.

Love
Mugunghwa

[poppyseed]

Hi Mugunghwa

I’m looking at my hands again as I realise there was some contradiction with what I said previously - which is ok :) I was (and maybe I still am) confused because while looking at ‘the hands’ a thought appeared labelling the seeing as ‘hands’....But then I just said that “a thought can’t do anything”, but it can label a sensation… so it can do something. This area is still not clear for me.

That’s because you expect some kind of agency, like in language, where we have a subject doing an action. We have expressions like “The grass is growing,” in which the grass becomes the doer of growing. But is the grass actually growing itself or is it a whole process of exchange of nutrients on a micro level that makes cells dividing etc – “grass” growing? Thoughts/language are always out of step with reality, and they obstruct the clear seeing of how things actually are. Reality is very simple. Are there solid thoughts flowing around capable of coming up with descriptions? Thoughts consists of concepts. Concepts are built on other concepts, which, in turn, are built on even more concepts, creating a house of cards in which everything makes sense in the context of the other concepts.
Do you see that?
Love
Rali

[mugunghwa]

Hi Rali,

But is the grass actually growing itself or is it a whole process of exchange of nutrients on a micro level that makes cells dividing etc – “grass” growing?

no the grass is not growing itself. It (the grass) is not doing or controlling the act of growing. The grass is simply growing. ….Nothing is doing the action to make the grass grow… I see this now. Thank you! In the hand example I could not let go of the thought that the hands had to be 'doing' the action. But now I can see CLEARLY that ‘the hands’ were not 'doing' anything. Reality is very simple :)

Are there solid thoughts flowing around capable of coming up with descriptions?

No - there aren’t! Thoughts don't consist of anything. Like you said, they are built out of concepts, built from concepts. They are not solid and not capable of making descriptions. Or doing anything.

Thank you for your help with this - it's becoming clearer...

Love
Mugunghwa

[poppyseed]

Hi Mugunghwa

Very good! Let’s carry on…
I saw this in our earlier conversations and I wanted to see if anything has changed here with regards to this statement:

To not only maintain awareness but to ‘be’ awareness. If that is such a thing. Also clarity about who ‘i’ am. To observe and let things fall away from me without grasping tightly onto them.

Are you awareness? Are you doing the noticing of thought? Can you control/maintain the noticing (e.g. with some kind of practice)? Is awareness personal?
Is awareness prior to, or is it arising together with, the objects that it is being aware of (e.g. thinking, seeing, hearing, etc.)?
Can the noticing of a thought be separated from the thought?
Focus on the feeling of am-ness/being, aliveness.
Can you tell if there is a being or just being?
Is life happening to a being or as being?
Please don’t answer automatically! Allow the questions to work their magic :)
Love
Rali

[mugunghwa]

Hello Rali,

I'm so happy to receive these questions. Just to really sit with them for a while has been amazing. Thank you.

Are you awareness?

I’m not awareness...I can’t be awareness. I can’t be anything. I can experience awareness but to say I am awareness is to say that it’s my identity. Which is not true. Awareness can’t be an object...a "me".

Are you doing the noticing of thought?

I’m not really doing anything. A thought is appearing. It’s ‘there’…but it’s just ‘there’. A thought is just appearing. When I claim to notice a thought, that is actually a thought itself; not necessarily noticing.

Can you control/maintain the noticing (e.g. with some kind of practice)?

I cannot control or maintain the noticing of thoughts. I remember I tried to do this in an earlier exercise and told a story that there was something able to control the noticing of thoughts. But, this was not true. This was a thought about being able to control and maintain thoughts.

Is awareness personal?

No…because that would mean that awareness is part of me or belongs to me. But it’s not.

Is awareness prior to, or is it arising together with, the objects that it is being aware of (e.g. thinking, seeing, hearing, etc.)?

Awareness arises with the thinking, seeing, hearing of objects. I cannot be aware of something without experiencing it first…If I did claim to be aware of an object before I sensed it then that would simply be a thought.

Can the noticing of a thought be separated from the thought?

Yes… the noticing of a thought is separate from the thought. The noticing of a thought is not labelling it anything. It’s just awareness that a thought is appearing.

Focus on the feeling of am-ness/being, aliveness.

Can you tell if there is a being or just being?

I can’t tell if there is a being. I’m closing my eyes and focusing on this feeling of being/aliveness and don’t feel like an object (I.e a body/a person/a being). There are just sensations of aliveness and being (I.e feeling breath). There’s nothing I am experiencing that tells me there is a being here. It’s more just being.

Is life happening to a being or as being?

…I’ve been sitting with this question the whole day…All I can say is that life is simply happening. Not happening to something or a being as this means there’s a kind of separation – a being and a life. But this cant be true. I can’t feel life happening to me; there’s no way of experiencing this, right? Life is as being

Love
Mugunghwa

[poppyseed]

Hi Mugunghwa

I can’t tell if there is a being. I’m closing my eyes and focusing on this feeling of being/aliveness and don’t feel like an object (I.e a body/a person/a being). There are just sensations of aliveness and being (I.e feeling breath). There’s nothing I am experiencing that tells me there is a being here. It’s more just being.

Very good!

…I’ve been sitting with this question the whole day…All I can say is that life is simply happening. Not happening to something or a being as this means there’s a kind of separation – a being and a life. But this cant be true. I can’t feel life happening to me; there’s no way of experiencing this, right? Life is as being

Good! If there is still doubt check with DE. We are not replacing old beliefs with new ones, hence the importance of LOOKING.

Awareness arises with the thinking, seeing, hearing of objects. I cannot be aware of something without experiencing it first…If I did claim to be aware of an object before I sensed it then that would simply be a thought.
Yes… the noticing of a thought is separate from the thought. The noticing of a thought is not labelling it anything. It’s just awareness that a thought is appearing.

Do you see how limited language/thought is when it comes to describing DE? What makes being aware of experiencing different/separate from experiencing? It’s only thought that “sees” a series of actions happening here. In reality can you distinguish awareness/separate from e.g., seeing? Can you see a border that defines where the awareness ends and the seeing begins? Can there be awareness of seeing without seeing and seeing without awareness of seeing? Are there two separate things? Is thinking different in a way from seeing? What makes it different?

Love
Rali