Going deeper

[wgiruzzi926]

Hi

It's very interesting what you wrote.

This struck me:

"Finally, we see the big picture and then the question, "Is there a self?" no longer makes sense. Then no doubts and no further questions arise."

I notice that statements like this or listening to Pam from the video often turn into a goal for me. "Oh so I should be shooting for no questions to arise" or "I really want to know and understand what Pam's day to day experience is like so I can see if I'm somehow on the right track to enlightenment." These often send me down a rabbit hole.

So I wouldn't have wrote it the way you did (I'm not critiquing what you wrote). In my direct experience, if questions, thoughts, doubts come, they come. And if some particular thoughts or doubts stop coming then they stop. Now, if thoughts, doubts come, I'm not saying that I need to answer them or think about them. I'm simply saying that them coming or not coming doesn't seem up to me. And in truth if answering or thinking about them happens, then it happens.

So let me see if I can boil this down. There was another point in my healing after the story in April. I kept saying or thinking, "I'm healing." But then one day the question arose, "Is that true? YOU'RE healing?" I did a lot of things to heal from the anxiety and spent a lot of money, but I could not and cannot say definitively whether any of it "caused" the healing. The best I can say is "healing happened."

I feel so out of control of the "bad" things that happen like the stroke, the bleed, the anxiety, but began to wonder, "Why do I think I have to be so in control of the "good" things?" With that seeing, all this control just fell away. Obviously, looking at the totality of our dialogue, and the questions I've asked, it still comes back.

But even with that, I can start to see what you mean by questions falling away. Three or four years ago, I would have likely still been arguing with you about some of the things you said, OR why what you said doesn't make sense given X,Y,Z. I would have seen you as some sort of adversary rather than someone who is on my side. I would have been competing with you to be "the smartest guy in the room." Do I see us as One? Not really. I don't even really know what that means from direct experience. And even that, 3 or 4 years ago, would have driven me crazy. Today? Maybe a little crazy, from time to time, but more and more I just don't want to be bothered with thinking, with figuring things out. The more and more I see that there's only really one purpose to figuring things out and that is to get an answer so I experience freedom. So I'm going to wrestle with myself, my intellect, drive myself crazy being the question? Or "unask the question" and settle into freedom right here, right now?

That's a no brainer.

[AwayKen127]

Hey Bill,

So I wouldn't have wrote it the way you did (I'm not critiquing what you wrote). In my direct experience, if questions, thoughts, doubts come, they come. And if some particular thoughts or doubts stop coming then they stop. Now, if thoughts, doubts come, I'm not saying that I need to answer them or think about them. I'm simply saying that them coming or not coming doesn't seem up to me. And in truth if answering or thinking about them happens, then it happens.

This is perfect.

So I'm going to wrestle with myself, my intellect, drive myself crazy being the question? Or "unask the question" and settle into freedom right here, right now?

It's a no-brainer, indeed. NIce pun.

This has been a really great dialogue, and I'm happy to continue with it as long as you want, but there's no reason it has to be on this thread. When the client has seen clearly that the separate self is an illusion, the guide poses "Final Questions". Then three other guides sign off on the answers (or pose further questions). When that is all done, the client is welcomed as one who has crossed the "gateless gate" and the thread is archived. The client can then guide on LU if he wishes, and can join a number of aftercare pages on Facebook and attend Zoom calls. We could stay in touch as Facebook friends, for example, and in those other ways.

Are you ready for Final Questions or are there other things you want to explore first?

[wgiruzzi926]

I'm ready for the Final Questions.

This has been really great Jeff. It has been, as you said, a great dialogue and I really appreciate it. I absolutely want to stay in touch via FB. I can't recall if my last name is anywhere on the application, but my name on FB is Bill Giruzzi if you don't mind sending me a friend request.

Also, interested in the aftercare FB and zoom calls.

Thanks so much!

[AwayKen127]

Bill, here you go. Answer honestly. If I see something that needs further investigation, I'll process it with you before submitting it for peer review.

FINAL QUESTIONS
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
 2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.  
 3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days. 
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? 
5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience. 
6) Anything to add?
Jeff

[wgiruzzi926]

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No and no.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

Well, the illusion of the separate self is the notion that there is a separate self. Looking from direct experience, there are thoughts, there are feelings, there are sensations and perceptions. None of those things are permanent. They come and go. They are only held together by an idea - an idea that there is a separate you.

It starts when one "gets" language. It starts then because again, it primarily is a creature of language. The separate self exists in language.

From my own experience, how it works is ... well ... ironically, the question that I and most are driven by to some extent, "Who am I?" is the right question. From there, though, it goes to sh*t because we look for who we are in the thoughts, in the feelings, in the sensations, in the perceptions. I spent a lot of my life being the gawky nerdy boy/man trying to learn to be something other than gawky, nerdy and a whole host of other things.

The problem with all of it, the thing I missed for most of my life, is who I am comes BEFORE thought, feelings, sensation and perceptions. What I didn't know was I wasn't going to find it there EVER (and believe me I looked).

For me, this manifested as gawky and nerdy. Then it was working to become the smartest person in the room, and then become transformed, and understand and know the right answer. Oh my gosh, totally exhausting.

It's like I spent my life unhappy with who I was and then created this vision of this perfect being that I wanted to be. And none of it was anything but an illusion.

It's funny if you had asked me a year or so ago, what's needed for true happiness in life, my answer would have been in the realm of being in control in some form or another. Now, it's seeing there is no control, there is no one there to control, and surprisingly that answer brings tears of joy to my eyes. I am not bound and limited in this body or this mind. I am the whole the freaking universe. That's just awesome.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

I think my answer from #2 sort of morphed into an answer to this question. I'm just finding so much joy in where I'm at. Like last night, my wife and I went out to dinner for her birthday with my wife's sister and brother in law. In the past, I would have been sitting there, either being bored because my wife's sister and husband aren't as transformed as Lisa and I so we just can't talk about "these" things (arrogant, I know) or I would have been in my head trying to figure out how to make this mundane conversation into something transformational. I would have gone home miserable and complaining and having robbed my wife of a true celebration because she can always tell when I don't want to be somewhere.

Last night though, I was just there. I listened. If something came to mind, I shared it. We laughed and ate and joked and told mundane stories. It was absolutely wonderful.

As you know (Jeff), I've had a lot of health stuff this last couple of years. During the time of our inquiry, I was really present to all the love that was in my life, all the people who really loved me, and I got stuck on this question, "Why do people love me so much?" It wasn't as harsh as it sounds nor was it coming from a place of not feeling worthy. It was simple curiosity. I had a conversation with my best friend and after the conversation it struck me that I had the question wrong. The question wasn't "Why do people love me so much?" The question really was, "How did I miss it? All these years it's been right there."

Point is as a result of this dialogue, I see that everything I've been looking for is right there ... always. Experience comes and goes, but that love, peace, freedom, whatever you want to call it, is right there always.

That's just awesome and amazing.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

I should say that I think I've seen this before our inquiry, BUT the carrot that my mind always wanted to grab was "What if I'm missing something? What if there's more?" When Jeff and I started, it had become a little fuzzy for me. I could sense that I was seeking again, but I didn't know what else to do so I signed up to do this inquiry.

There was a turning point and there wasn't. What I mean is from the very beginning, I was swimming in concept and Jeff was not letting me get away with it. He was calling me on it throughout. So in that way there wasn't a turning point because he was steering me toward direct experience right from the beginning regardless of what we happened to be talking about.

Then, he was going to be offline for about 4 days and during that time I sent him a link to a Rupert Spira video and asked a question about it. His response again was pushing me toward direct experience. I just loved the way he said it, "Do you really want to hear some second-hand thought about a third party's thoughts? Or do you want to see for yourself directly what only you can see?"

The funny thing was (as I said in my response to him) was that 5 minutes after I posted that question with the link to Rupert, I thought, "Why are you asking him a question about someone else's point of view?"

After that, I struggled a bit interacting with Jeff, not because of him, but because it felt like every word that was coming out of my mouth was concept. Like I didn't know how to answer his questions without concept because everything seemed like concept.

But then, somewhere in there, I just said to myself, "F#ck it!" and I just started to share these things I had experienced. Honestly, I didn't even know whether it was still conceptual or not, but it did feel different.

Then Jeff thanks me for sharing and he shared some personal things, and then the whole thing shifted for me to this rich, intimate conversation, and then it was just like, "Bill, why are you wasting time thinking about, analyzing, trying to understand this stuff. It's right here in this moment. Whatever is happening "good" or "bad". Everything is happening in this moment. You don't need to do any of that."

And for the most part, from that time, I just stopped doing it. And when I start to do those things and I see it, I just stop. And I say to myself, "Just let it go. You'll see something in the quiet." To be clear, I have no idea if that last statement is true or not, and I don't care to know. That's the thing, thoughts come, and more and more, I just have no interest in ascertaining the truth of them. I accept that statement that I'll see something in the quiet as true in that moment of seeing it. And like every other thought, at some point, it will move on.

The best way I can say it is I know the truth in a way that is behind the words. I also know that just about anything that arises in language to some extent is a lie, AND I'm okay with that.

That's just about the best thing I got that I didn't know I wanted. I couldn't have even imagined it as a possible outcome.

So cool

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

Decision, intention, choice happens. There is no free will and no control.

I'm not responsible for any of it because there's no I to be responsible. It would be like saying a beaver is responsible for building a dam. No! "Beaver building dam" is happening.

What makes things happen? No idea. Way above my pay grade

How does it work? Thoughts come. Action happens. I'm not living. I'm being lived.

I think the biggest example that I can think of I've already talked about in the thread with Jeff. Not sure the 3 reviewers are going to read the entire thread so I'll give a shortened version here.

Had a stroke in 2019, then a brain bleed in 2020, then debilitating anxiety/depression in 2021. During the year of anxiety, I sought a lot of help most of which didn't seem to help. In mid-April of this year, I completely forgot who my wife was for about 24 hours. Didn't recognize her at all. Some short time later, maybe 5 to 7 days, I woke one morning to the typical barrage of thoughts and feelings: "Why didn't I just die while sleeping? Maybe I should just end it myself?" But then, for one small moment, that thinking stopped or slowed down, and something else came through: "It's lies. It's all lies." From that day forward, I started to heal, or better said, healing happened.

I can make no rhyme or reason of it. I have absolutely no idea why/how it happened. I can guess. I can make stuff up, but the truth is I don't know. More importantly, I don't care.

6) Anything to add?

Just thank you Jeff. Thanks for your presence, your pointing (even though there's no you🙂 )

I'm incredibly grateful for our conversation and I hope we stay in touch.

[AwayKen127]

It was an absolute pleasure working with you, Bill. The conversation was very special and I felt I deepened through the process as well. Your answers look great to me. We'll wait to hear from the other guides. Talk soon!
Jeff

[wgiruzzi926]

😊

[AwayKen127]

Hey Bill,

Four guides confirmed your answers, two of them saying, "Lovely". Congratulations! We say you have crossed the Gateless Gate, although you know there is no gate and no one to cross it.

You are invited to join this meeting :

Third weekend of every month
Saturday 18th of June 6 pm-8 pm British time,
Sunday, 19th of June 10 am-12 am British time
You can join both days or one depending your time zone.
The meetings will be led by Liberation Unleashed guides.
No agenda, no promises or expectations, just being and sharing together.
Here is a link to join
Join Zoom Meeting
https://us02web.zoom.us/j/3718929853...
Meeting ID: 371 892 9853
Passcode: HmbSF4

I invite you to watch these videos :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUDzrCLlrj4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJQcD588g2w

I'll also email you with more information. Keep your eyes open for a message from an administrator who will change your color to blue.

All my best,
Jeff

[wgiruzzi926]

Thank you my friend.