Anything more than intellectual understanding of this?

[Eloratea]

I'm not bothered by the experience of there being a "me". This website puts forward the idea that being without this experience is liberating in some way, so I'm curious as to whether it's possible to have more than an intellectual understanding of this. There also are things that I am bothered by (which I mentioned before, the fact that life is not good or enjoyable), and I wonder if this is somehow related to any of this.

What would need to change right now for this moment to become more enjoyable?

Can you feel the exact place of the border between you and the rest?

No. It feels as if I'm behind my eyes somewhere, but there's no way of knowing what size or shape this "I' is, just that it's inside my head. There's not really anything there, all there is is a feeling or a knowing that something is there. I think "knowing" is a better word than feeling or belief, since I don't actually feel it and I don't believe it.

Is it the self behind eyes that is unsatisfied with life experience? Can it do something about it?

[xyzzy]

What would need to change right now for this moment to become more enjoyable?

I have no idea. I don't ever feel good, I have never experienced "joy", whatever exactly that is. Probably the only time I feel good is if I drink alcohol, but this obviously is no solution to happiness in life and I rarely ever drink. I am amused by various things, but amusement is not enough. I don't feel bad as I'm going through life most of the time, either, life is mostly just neutral.

Is it the self behind eyes that is unsatisfied with life experience? Can it do something about it?

No, obviously the self behind the eyes doesn't really exist, and is just a feeling (or a knowing, or a thought, or whatever), and can't do anything. It can't be unsatisfied or satisfied.

[Eloratea]

So it was always like that? No special cause, nothing suppressed, not processed?

Do you have some seeking history? In terms of looking for the meaning of life in science or spirituality? For some broader picture of human’s life?

Maybe you should just look into your „heart“ and see what do you really want, what do you really need to do?

How honest are you?
Honesty by itself brings more aliveness and therefore more enjoyment of life.

[xyzzy]

So it was always like that? No special cause, nothing suppressed, not processed?

It was much worse when I was younger. I was extremely emotionally disconnected as a child and teenager, I didn't feel much of any normal human emotions. I didn't love my parents or anyone in my family, I was unable to feel anger. I had no friends as a teenager, and it didn't even occur to me to be bothered by this or to try to make friends. This wasn't due to some great trauma in my past or anything, it was just the way I always was.

I woke up in my late teens, and connected to my emotions. I am now emotionally normal, I would say, in that I feel anger and love and sadness and so on. I'm an intuitive person, I think, and I cry easily, I cry during moving scenes in movies, and so on. But I don't ever feel good, I don't feel happiness or joy or whatever. A lot of things amuse me, and amusement feels somewhat good, in a shallow way though I suppose.

Do you have some seeking history? In terms of looking for the meaning of life in science or spirituality? For some broader picture of human’s life?

Yes, when I "woke up", as I mentioned above, and realized what I was like, I started trying to fix myself in various ways. Therapy, meditation, and so on. While I did succeed early on in actually connecting to my emotions, nothing I did most of the time since then really changed anything.

Maybe you should just look into your „heart“ and see what do you really want, what do you really need to do?

I want something that feels good or meaningful or something like that, I don't know what it is though. It feels like something is missing, like life is meant in some way to be good, rather than neutral. I have no idea what I need to do, and I've mostly given up on the idea of doing anything to try to find happiness (or whatever), as doing things doesn't seem to do any good.

How honest are you?
Honesty by itself brings more aliveness and therefore more enjoyment of life.

I'm extremely honest with myself. I think I'm fairly honest with other people in general. I'm being honest with everything I'm saying here, as there would be no reason not to be, and being dishonest would make this conversation a waste of time.

[Eloratea]

Thank you for sharing your story. Of course there is no point in this without honesty. And it is always in the first place honesty with yourself.

I want something that feels good or meaningful or something like that, I don't know what it is though. It feels like something is missing, like life is meant in some way to be good, rather than neutral.

I would say that life is basically neutral. And there is a story that paint it, one or another way. Some people can be deeply involved in a story and some (mainly more mature) not.

I have no idea what I need to do, and I've mostly given up on the idea of doing anything to try to find happiness (or whatever), as doing things doesn't seem to do any good.

I think it is a good idea to stop the search on “outside” level. Because it is chasing something that doesn’t really exist, that it is just a mental concept. Joy, happiness, whatever. And by letting go of that concept opens possibility for something real and deep to be experienced; here and now.

You overall story sounds familiar to me and, as I see it, it could fit into gnostic explanations of humans’ destiny and in some other western spirituality content; where there are described various phases of the transformation of human being….
You may check it for yourself, see if it resonates and gives you another dimension of seeing life, or if it's just another story.
Use the honesty, as much as possible in everything.
Best wishes.

[xyzzy]

You overall story sounds familiar to me and, as I see it, it could fit into gnostic explanations of humans’ destiny and in some other western spirituality content; where there are described various phases of the transformation of human being….
You may check it for yourself, see if it resonates and gives you another dimension of seeing life, or if it's just another story.

I read a bit about gnosticism (just now), and it's not something I'm especially interested in. I'm not personally interested in any religious belief systems. "Just another story", as you said.

[Eloratea]

Actually there is a difference between belief system and working model of reality. But everyone needs to make it for themselves.

Anyway, what we can help here is pointing in here and now to see what is really there in actual experience. Are there some limiting beliefs regarding existence of separate self.

Could you describe what is separate self and how that illusion manifests before and after seeing it?

[xyzzy]

Could you describe what is separate self and how that illusion manifests before and after seeing it?

It's the belief that there is something at the center of everything which can control things such as the body and the thoughts, and which is the source of experience. It would be difficult for me to say, based on my own experience, how it manifests, since seeing that it's an illusion hasn't changed my experience. Maybe in time I will look and see that something in my life is different, and then see that this difference was due to the illusion of a separate self, but this hasn't happened yet.

I could theorize as to what the effects of the illusion of a separate self are, but I think we want to stick to real experiences and seeing.

[Eloratea]

How is your experience right now?
Is it ok?

[xyzzy]

How is your experience right now?
Is it ok?

Everything is ok, and it is not possible for anything to not be ok.

This is not what I feel, though. When you ask the question, what comes up are feelings of sadness, emotional pain. It feels like life is not as it should be. Life is either negative or neutral, but not good, and I want something good or meaningful which isn't there.

[Eloratea]

Everything is ok, and it is not possible for anything to not be ok.

Can you elaborate more on this? If this is answer from intellectual knowing (what is expected, heard about, sounds logical...) and not from direct experience, than it doesn't belong to honest answering.

This is not what I feel, though. When you ask the question, what comes up are feelings of sadness, emotional pain. It feels like life is not as it should be. Life is either negative or neutral, but not good, and I want something good or meaningful which isn't there.

Find the thought(s) triggering this feeling. It always come from thoughts.

[xyzzy]

Can you elaborate more on this? If this is answer from intellectual knowing (what is expected, heard about, sounds logical...) and not from direct experience, than it doesn't belong to honest answering.

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, when I was 16, I had a realization that "nothing matters", that everything just is as it is and that any feelings that things "should" be different are just feelings and are not actually true statements about reality.

If I touch a stove and it feels hot, we take that feeling to mean that the stove itself is hot. Hotness, we assume, is a property of the stove. If I look at a situation and it feels wrong, the assumption generally made is that the situation is wrong, that wrongness is a property of the situation. This is not true and not possible, things just are as they are, and there is no property of wrongness that a thing or a situation can have.

I don't know whether this is just intellectual knowing or from direct experience. Things still feel wrong to me, I still experience things as if they "should" be different.

Find the thought(s) triggering this feeling. It always come from thoughts.

The thoughts are, I don't want this, I want this to be different ("this" meaning life, this moment) . The "I" is not the important part of it, take out the I and you still have "don't want this, want this to be different".

[Eloratea]

The thoughts are, I don't want this, I want this to be different.

Are these thoughts true? What if they are not true, but belief in them gives them power to shape the experience.
What if you wouldn’t believe any word of it and would say “yes” to this experience, to the reality of here and now? Why not try this approach. As belief in thoughts creating resistance to what is haven’t brought you much far.

[xyzzy]

The thoughts are, I don't want this, I want this to be different.

Are these thoughts true? What if they are not true, but belief in them gives them power to shape the experience.
What if you wouldn’t believe any word of it and would say “yes” to this experience, to the reality of here and now? Why not try this approach. As belief in thoughts creating resistance to what is haven’t brought you much far.

I don't know how to do this. I don't know how to not believe those thoughts, or to say yes to this experience. I can say the word "yes", but of course that's not what you mean. I would like it if this would happen. I don't know how to try this.

[Eloratea]

How we stop believe in anything? By seeing it is not true or by knowing that it is not necessarily true, questioning it and seeing what shows up.

Thoughts are not unquestionable messengers of reality. So, treat them more realistically.
Pet those thoughts that seem to always come back; like you would treat a bit annoying pet or child. Pet them, be kind, smile on them and let them go. They might just need some kind attention, but not to be taken seriously and to be followed.
And feel the feelings that might stay. There will be a difference.
And that’s the beginning of saying “yes” to actual experience. Which can go deeper as unconditional belief in thoughts is disappearing and heart opens more, allowing more freedom and aliveness (and also joy), regardless of circumstances.