Recently passed through the gate and hoping to be a guide

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Vivien
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Re: Recently passed through the gate and hoping to be a guide

Postby Vivien » Thu Mar 24, 2022 8:58 am

Hi Erin,
Should I continue to try to be aware, although there's no one to be aware or to try. LOL. It seems overwhelming at times and other times fairly simple.
Yes. But make sure that it’s totally clear that ‘when you try to be aware’ is also what is happening and not done. If any moment it feels like it is done, then just look for the doer the awarer.

Please continue looking and we will see what happens. In a few days, please come back to share.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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plantborn
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Re: Recently passed through the gate and hoping to be a guide

Postby plantborn » Thu Mar 24, 2022 7:53 pm

Ok I will. I’ll reach out in a few days. Thank you.
Erin

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plantborn
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Re: Recently passed through the gate and hoping to be a guide

Postby plantborn » Wed Mar 30, 2022 7:37 pm

Hi Vivien,
But make sure that it’s totally clear that ‘when you try to be aware’ is also what is happening and not done. If any moment it feels like it is done, then just look for the doer the awarer.

Please continue looking and we will see what happens. In a few days, please come back to share.
I have been enjoying looking these past days. There is genuine looking (looking without any thought about needing to look) and also the apparent 'trying' to look, but seeing that it's all the same. I'm also letting go of trying as it feels like tension in the body.

Especially enjoying the birds. They seem louder these past few months. Sometimes it feels personal, like they are chirping for me. They have a way of bringing me out of thought stories. The central nervous system seems more relaxed. Falling and staying asleep is a little easier.

Thank you Vivien.

Love,
Erin

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Vivien
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Re: Recently passed through the gate and hoping to be a guide

Postby Vivien » Fri Apr 01, 2022 5:34 am

Hi Erin,
I'm also letting go of trying as it feels like tension in the body.
Next time, when there is a trying of letting go, inquire:

What is it that is letting go of trying?

Who/what has a problem with tension?

Who / what feels the tension?
Sometimes it feels personal, like they are chirping for me.
So the chirping is happening TO someone?
Where is at the receiver end?

They have a way of bringing me out of thought stories.
Who is being brought out of thought stories?

What is this me (or whatever) that sometimes is in and other times is out of thought stories?

Is there someone moving between these two states?
Or having these two states?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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plantborn
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Re: Recently passed through the gate and hoping to be a guide

Postby plantborn » Sat Apr 02, 2022 9:56 pm

Hi Vivien,
Next time, when there is a trying of letting go, inquire:

What is it that is letting go of trying?

Who/what has a problem with tension?

Who / what feels the tension?
This is the way it feels and the best way to describe the sensation. There is a sensation of a contraction in the body with tension. Like a tight fist. The tension causes pain--in the shoulders, neck and jaw. There also is a sense of fatigue around it. Best guess is the body wants to be healthy and survive so it responds in a manner to accomplish that. Thoughts pop in, stop trying, Trying is still reinforcing a separate self.
So the chirping is happening TO someone?
Where is at the receiver end?
Again this is just a feeling in the body. A loud chirp is heard. Almost startling to the body. Attention is moved to the bird. Thought pops in 'remember to remember'. It could be described better as a sense of connection or oneness with the bird vs personal.

There is no person at the receiving end. There is just perceiving happening.
Who is being brought out of thought stories?

What is this me (or whatever) that sometimes is in and other times is out of thought stories?

Is there someone moving between these two states?
Or having these two states?
There is no who to be brought out of thought stories. There is emotion tied to the thought story making it seem like an entity at times.

The 'me' is the believed thought, but there is no me in reality.

There is only one flow and no entities to have these two states.

Thank you,
Erin

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Vivien
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Re: Recently passed through the gate and hoping to be a guide

Postby Vivien » Thu Apr 07, 2022 12:30 am

Hi Erin,

I’m intentionally not replying too soon, so I can leave you with more time to inquire :)
Best guess is the body wants to be healthy and survive so it responds in a manner to accomplish that.
The body wants to be healthy? HOW do you know that?

Does the body actually want something/anything?
How do you know that?

Notice, that you are dressing up the body with its own will and wants, as if it were an entity / person.
Again this is just a feeling in the body.
Feeling in the body?
Is there a body + feelings/sensations?
And those feelings/sensations are INSIDE of that body? Is that really how it is?

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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plantborn
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Re: Recently passed through the gate and hoping to be a guide

Postby plantborn » Fri Apr 08, 2022 5:33 am

Hi Vivien,

I've been working a lot lately. I have tomorrow off and will take plenty of time to answer tomorrow.

Thank you
Erin

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plantborn
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Re: Recently passed through the gate and hoping to be a guide

Postby plantborn » Fri Apr 08, 2022 10:17 pm

Hi Vivien,
The body wants to be healthy? HOW do you know that?

Does the body actually want something/anything?
How do you know that?

Notice, that you are dressing up the body with its own will and wants, as if it were an entity / person.
I definitely need to use better wording. The body/organism withdrawals from pain stimulus, has innate ability to maintain homeostasis, fight or flight response, etc. No one is making these things happen, they just do.

It is impossible for the body to want anything.

Yes, I can see the way it was said definitely comes off as the body as it's own entity. But that is not true.
Feeling in the body?
Is there a body + feelings/sensations?
And those feelings/sensations are INSIDE of that body? Is that really how it is?
There is a perceived feeling and a perceived body. The body is an experience, not an experiencer.
The feelings/sensations are not contained in a body. They are just present and just happening. No controller and no owner.

Thank you
Erin

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Vivien
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Re: Recently passed through the gate and hoping to be a guide

Postby Vivien » Mon Apr 11, 2022 1:03 am

Hi Erin,

Probably it’s time to really investigate the body. Since the body might not be how it seems to be :)

The illusion of the self is not just simply coming from thoughts, but also from the belief that “I am the body” or “I have a body” or that this or that sensation is ‘me’ or the location of the ‘me’, or that this or that sensation is happening to ‘me’. So the thought label ‘this is me’ and the appearing sensations are welded together, creating the seeming ‘sense of self’.

Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes.
Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on verbal or visual thoughts:

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

Is there an inside or an outside?
If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?


Look very carefully, especially with the last question. Take your time, don’t rush. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, having a short break from work, walking, etc) before replying.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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plantborn
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Re: Recently passed through the gate and hoping to be a guide

Postby plantborn » Tue Apr 12, 2022 6:27 am

Hi Vivien,

Thank you for being so patient.
Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?
Ok, with eyes closed, no it is unknown how tall the body is. The weight is undetectable. There is no form or shape to the body.
Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?
Although there is a slight sensation of pressure from the clothing and chair, it can not be determined where one starts or stops.
Is there an inside or an outside?
If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?
There is a feeling of expansion. There is no inside or outside. There are no borders.
What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?
The label body is referring to bones, skin, organs, etc.
The actual experience of the body is just sensations.

Thank you
Erin

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Vivien
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Re: Recently passed through the gate and hoping to be a guide

Postby Vivien » Tue Apr 12, 2022 7:38 am

Hi Erin,
Although there is a slight sensation of pressure from the clothing and chair, it can not be determined where one starts or stops.
Let’s look at this more closely.

If you don’t consult with your thoughts, how do you know that the sensation that is present is the touching of clothing?

Or the pressure from the chair?

How do you even know that it’s pressure?

How many sensations are there, one for the clothing and another for the skin?

One for the ‘pressure coming from the chair’ and another for the skin?

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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plantborn
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Re: Recently passed through the gate and hoping to be a guide

Postby plantborn » Wed Apr 13, 2022 4:40 am

Hi Vivien,
If you don’t consult with your thoughts, how do you know that the sensation that is present is the touching of clothing?

Or the pressure from the chair?

How do you even know that it’s pressure?

How many sensations are there, one for the clothing and another for the skin?

One for the ‘pressure coming from the chair’ and another for the skin?
Ah, thoughts were getting involved without realizing it.
It can't be known that the sensation is clothing. Or the pressure is from a chair.
Pressure is another label. It's just a sensation that is felt.
There is only one sensation.

Erin

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Vivien
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Re: Recently passed through the gate and hoping to be a guide

Postby Vivien » Sun Apr 17, 2022 8:59 am

Hi Erin,

Just notice how interesting these discoveries are. It SEEMS like that there are 2 things in experience a body + a chair, or the body + clothing, but in reality there is only one experience going on, only a single sensation. Do you see that very clearly?

So the body is far from what it seems to be….

Look at this deeply… what else could you discover about the body, when looking at only experience?

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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plantborn
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Re: Recently passed through the gate and hoping to be a guide

Postby plantborn » Tue Apr 19, 2022 5:41 am

Hi Vivien,

I have been working with body sensations a lot this past week...
Just notice how interesting these discoveries are. It SEEMS like that there are 2 things in experience a body + a chair, or the body + clothing, but in reality there is only one experience going on, only a single sensation. Do you see that very clearly?
I can see that clearly now. The mind got involved originally and was labeling chair, clothing, body, separately. The ACTUAL sensation is all one sensation.
Look at this deeply… what else could you discover about the body, when looking at only experience?
When the leg, for example, is being experienced, it feels out in the distance and not necessarily attached to anything. As the leg is sensed with wiggling toes, I don't know where it is registering. When that is looked at, it repeatedly leads to there is no self. Not a thought there is no self, but when looked for, a realization that there is no Erin registering all this. With each realization, there is a sensation of a quick pain in the chest. Like a shock.

There is a sensation of vastness with sensations popping in and out of existence. This includes sounds. The sounds and tactile sensations are also within the vastness. The sounds, the tactile sensations, the registering... none of it has any location.

Erin

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Vivien
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Re: Recently passed through the gate and hoping to be a guide

Postby Vivien » Wed Apr 20, 2022 12:47 am

Hi Erin,

You did a really nice inquiry.

Here is more depth of instigation of the body. I’m giving this exercise only because you want to be a guide, and it might come up with clients.

Close your eyes, and scan through the body. Look for every sensation that is present right now. You will find, that as you scan the body, a visual thought ‘shows’ the location of attention, so to speak.

If you look very carefully, you’ll find that there are some parts where the sensations are really strong, but there are other areas where there is hardly any sensation going on, or even nothing. So even the sensations what are labelled as ‘body’ cannot be experienced as a whole. I mean you cannot feel all ‘parts’ of the body at the same time. There is only a constructed visual thought and with the label ‘body’, and the belief that the body is a whole unit, always present, always available. But this cannot be further from the truth. Body as such exists only as a construct.
Can you see this?

Color and shape is NOT the AE of body, but the AE of color only.
The visual thought labelled ‘body’ is NOT the AE of body, but the AE of a thought only.
Sensations are NOT the AE of body, but the AE of sensations only.
The appearance of movement is NOT the AE of body, but the AE of colors and sensations only.

There is ZERO experience of body.
Body as such cannot be experienced.
Body is just a mental construct ( = thought), nothing else.
The body is just a conceptual overlay on the experience of colors and sensations. Can you see this?

So, is there even a body (other than a concept) that could house a self, an I inside?


Love,
Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/


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