Looking to find a self

[JonathanR]

Ok Harry

Just post when you feel ready or if you would like me to point for you?

Jon

[Harry1]

Hi Jon,

Maybe I could get some pointers from you? I feel kind of stuck.

Thank you for telling me that Harry. Is there some anxiety about this? Sometimes, it happens quite often (but not always) , there can be some apprehension or fear. If you find that's the case do let me know because it could be significant and we might need to properly address it so that you can feel relaxed.

I am okay. I don’t feel resistance. I am relaxed 😊. I do feel like I will never get this though.

Yes, that's a good description of how the illusion of self seems "strong" or "real". But it doesn't point to anything tangible, seeable, or hearable in reality. You're right about the role of thinking and memory and the projection of an imagined subject of experience. But now look;. Is there an experiencer of experience?

I have been looking into this question closely. There is nothing I can point to and sometimes it seems like there is no experiencer. But I still get this feeling in the head and the chest that something or someone is behind this when I really focus on it.

Sometimes language its self enshrines an idea making it seem quite sacrosanct and real. But try this out; what if we were to subtly change the words here from "there is a stable witness" to "there is witnessing" ?

"Witnessing" can be quite stable but does not imply that there is a separate "I" that makes it happen. Could it be happening quite spontaneously? Is there a witnesser of witnessing?

I’m not sure about this question. Sometimes it seems as though witnessing happens. I am not sure.

Can the thought "me" pick up a rock?

The thought me cannot pick up a rock. It’s just a thought.

What you've said here is all ABOUT a "self". Where you say "perceived by something" are you talking about actual sensory perception, such as seeing or hearing? What is being perceived and what is doing the perceiving?

I think this is related to the witnessing question. There seems to be a perceiving happening. But I cannot say by what, it seems to be just automatic.

There is often confusion at this stage. Don't worry too much. What you are looking for is real evidence for a separate, unchanging self. Look anywhere in experience that could seem to harbour a self.

I am feeling all sorts of emotions, frustration and confusion the most. But I am okay.

Cheers,
Harry

[JonathanR]

Hi Harry

. Maybe I could get some pointers from you? I feel kind of stuck.

Sure, of course.

. have been looking into this question closely. There is nothing I can point to and sometimes it seems like there is no experiencer. But I still get this feeling in the head and the chest that something or someone is behind this when I really focus on it.

Interesting. Who or what is that one?

If it's behind it should still be possible to find it or see it?

Really examine it. Where is this feeling in the head or chest. Focus on it in the moment it presents its self.

Is it a feeling or a thought masquerading as "feeling"?

. I think this is related to the witnessing question. There seems to be a perceiving happening. But I cannot say by what, it seems to be just automatic

"Perceiving" is a word that can change its skin to suit the circumstance. In other words it can mean ,"thought" in one situation or direct experience of sensation in another. But these are quite different. At least.tbought can be like a story, can be a belief ior even a delusion, whereas pure sensation happens directly without interpretations (unless accompanied by thoughts which add on an interpretation a story or announcement about what is actually experienced . Does that strike a chord?

All the best

Jon

[Harry1]

Hi Jon,

Interesting questions.

nteresting. Who or what is that one?

If it's behind it should still be possible to find it or see it?

Really examine it. Where is this feeling in the head or chest. Focus on it in the moment it presents its self.

Is it a feeling or a thought masquerading as "feeling"?

The feeling is felt in the head and face. It’s actually more of a very subtle thought. That has a certain solid quality.

"Perceiving" is a word that can change its skin to suit the circumstance. In other words it can mean ,"thought" in one situation or direct experience of sensation in another. But these are quite different. At least.tbought can be like a story, can be a belief ior even a delusion, whereas pure sensation happens directly without interpretations (unless accompanied by thoughts which add on an interpretation a story or announcement about what is actually experienced . Does that strike a chord?

This makes sense. I understand that thought may generate stories and beliefs. Sensations are much more direct. It is seen that thoughts can add interpretation onto experience for example, there is sound of a car. It is thought that labels what is just ‘hearing’ a ‘car.’ The next step is saying there is an ‘I’ that hears a car.

Harry

[JonathanR]

Hi Harry

Sorry for some delay in replying. The website has been slow to respond in recent days.

. The feeling is felt in the head and face. It’s actually more of a very subtle thought. That has a certain solid quality.

It's so interesting to see that these feelings and impressions, even of solidity, can emanate from or be a very subtle thought.

Is that 'certain solid quality' experienced in the immediate moment? Or is it subtle thought that presents an impression of 'solidity' sort of borrowed from the world of actual sensations?

if you kick a large rock with your foot real sensations we could describe as "solidity" are likely to appear. And in this case there is an actual sensation rather than a somewhat convincing idea of sensation.

. This makes sense. I understand that thought may generate stories and beliefs. Sensations are much more direct. It is seen that thoughts can add interpretation onto experience for example, there is sound of a car. It is thought that labels what is just ‘hearing’ a ‘car.’ The next step is saying there is an ‘I’ that hears a car.

This is absolutely true. What we are doing here is beginning to see this as it plays out. Notice this labelling tendency at various moments in the day.

Is it "you" that "does" all this labelling ?

It may seem to be.... Look carefully to find out the truth.

Does it tend to happen anyway, rather like a stream of labelling comments made by a narrator?


Best wishes

Jon

[Harry1]

Hi Jon,

I have been looking.

It's so interesting to see that these feelings and impressions, even of solidity, can emanate from or be a very subtle thought.

Is that 'certain solid quality' experienced in the immediate moment? Or is it subtle thought that presents an impression of 'solidity' sort of borrowed from the world of actual sensations?

if you kick a large rock with your foot real sensations we could describe as "solidity" are likely to appear. And in this case there is an actual sensation rather than a somewhat convincing idea of sensation.

The certain solid quality is a thought/feeling in the head area. I don’t think it’s borrowed from the world of actual sensations. It’s not the same as you would get from holding something or falling over.

One more thing. When I ask the question in my mind is there an experiencer of experience ? Immediately after I get a focussing in on the sensations and feeling of my head and face.
The feeling of focusing on on something makes it feel like there is a self.

So another example when I listen to a sound and see if there is a listener, the attention goes from the sound to the face and body which makes a convincing argument for the self.

This is absolutely true. What we are doing here is beginning to see this as it plays out. Notice this labelling tendency at various moments in the day.

Is it "you" that "does" all this labelling ?

It may seem to be.... Look carefully to find out the truth.

Does it tend to happen anyway, rather like a stream of labelling comments made by a narrator?

Yes this is seen. It is automatic and doesn’t come from any wilful effort for a me.

Cheers,
Harry

[JonathanR]

Hello Harry

. When I ask the question in my mind is there an experiencer of experience ? Immediately after I get a focussing in on the sensations and feeling of my head and face.
The feeling of focusing on on something makes it feel like there is a self.

So another example when I listen to a sound and see if there is a listener, the attention goes from the sound to the face and body which makes a convincing argument for the self. [/quote]

Are you looking for arguments to prove that theres a self?

Are you anxious to feel that there must be a self?

What do you really want?


Jon

[JonathanR]

Hello Harry

. When I ask the question in my mind is there an experiencer of experience ? Immediately after I get a focussing in on the sensations and feeling of my head and face.
The feeling of focusing on on something makes it feel like there is a self.

So another example when I listen to a sound and see if there is a listener, the attention goes from the sound to the face and body which makes a convincing argument for the self. [/quote]

Are you looking for arguments to prove that theres a self?

Are you anxious to feel that there must be a self?

What do you really want?


Jon

[JonathanR]

Hello Harry

. When I ask the question in my mind is there an experiencer of experience ? Immediately after I get a focussing in on the sensations and feeling of my head and face.
The feeling of focusing on on something makes it feel like there is a self.

So another example when I listen to a sound and see if there is a listener, the attention goes from the sound to the face and body which makes a convincing argument for the self. [/quote]

Are you looking for arguments to prove that theres a self?

Are you anxious to feel that there must be a self?

What do you really want?


Jon

[JonathanR]

Hello Harry

. When I ask the question in my mind is there an experiencer of experience ? Immediately after I get a focussing in on the sensations and feeling of my head and face.
The feeling of focusing on on something makes it feel like there is a self.

So another example when I listen to a sound and see if there is a listener, the attention goes from the sound to the face and body which makes a convincing argument for the self. [/quote]

Are you looking for arguments to prove that theres a self?

Are you anxious to feel that there must be a self?

What do you really want?


Jon

[Harry1]

Hi Jon,

Are you looking for arguments to prove that theres a self?

Are you anxious to feel that there must be a self?

What do you really want?

I don’t think I’m looking for arguments.

I’m not anxious to feel there must be a self. I just don’t believe there is no self just yet.

I don’t know what I want now. I thought I wanted to see no self to end suffering but I’m not sure I ever will.

Cheers,
Harry

[Harry1]

Hi Jon,

I don’t think I am done yet.

I had a interesting moment this morning. I had the realisation that what if this body arises and is not a “me”.

It seems my seeing is deepening gradually.

What more can I do to see?

Harry

[JonathanR]

Hi Harry

.
I don’t know what I want now. I thought I wanted to see no self to end suffering but I’m not sure I ever will.

It is possible to see that there is no self

But is this imagined to be an "experience of no self" as if it were some kind of state of mind?

Is it imagined that an experience of no self will end suffering? This is not guaranteed at all, as an immediate consequence, any more than imagining that an acorn will immediately cause an oak tree to appear.

. I had a interesting moment this morning. I had the realisation that what if this body arises and is not a “me”.

It seems my seeing is deepening gradually.

What more can I do to see?

Start by looking everywhere in the experience named 'the body' for evidence of a self . Look directly at sensations to see if separate self is there or if a separate self is experiencing sensations.

All the best

Jon

[Harry1]

Hi Jon,

I have to be honest with you. I haven’t been looking. I feel inauthentic with this process. It doesn’t feel right to me for some reason.

I think I’m going to press pause on this. I greatly appreciate the time you have taken to guide me. It’s very generous and I won’t forget it.

Thanks Jon.

Cheers,
Harry

[JonathanR]

Hi Harry

That's ok. Sometimes it can work out, taking a break, whether that be three months, a year, three years or whatever. You're ready when you feel ready. You're always welcome to get back in touch or to put in a new request for a guide as and when you feel ready.

All the best

Jon