soul meeting

[Vivien]

Hi Kasia,

You did a nice investigation :)

What is the difference between a happening and a doing?

Look around, all colours are given, they are happening. It’s not that the me-character can choose and make colours that are present into different ones. Or choose not to see green and see pink instead. Colours are happening. Shapes are happening. Sounds are happening.

What about sensations? Are they happening or the me-character doing them?

And how about feelings? Are they something the me-character does or something that is given?

Now look, what is not given?

What is not happening effortlessly and needs your doing?
Is there anything that is not just spontaneously arising?

Is the me-character doing anything in life?
Or is the me-character given? As an idea? Or as a self-directed, autonomous entity?

Vivien

[kasia]

hi Vivien,
thank you for your support! I'm truly grateful!

What is the difference between a happening and a doing?

yes, all is happening: the colours, the sounds, the shapes etc
honestly, I thought that the work can be done, so the difference between happening and doing would be there: in different actions but ... than I realised that a doing is made of single happenings ... just of separate movements which are happening ...
so it seems that there is no difference between a happening and a doing ...

What about sensations? Are they happening or the me-character doing them?

the sensations are happening, similar to the thoughts, just come and go, without any control of the me-character

And how about feelings? Are they something the me-character does or something that is given?

feelings like sensations and thoughts just come and go
the me-character is not able to decide to feel love or hate or so ...

Now look, what is not given?
What is not happening effortlessly and needs your doing?
Is there anything that is not just spontaneously arising?

it seems that nothing needs my doing, that everything is just spontaneously arising, even a decision to follow the thought about for example to start working or going on vacation because this decision is also a thought ...which is actually arising ...

Is the me-character doing anything in life?
Or is the me-character given? As an idea? Or as a self-directed, autonomous entity?

it seems that the me-character does everything but it's like a space where (or through which) different thoughts, sensations, feelings and actions are just happening
on the conventional level we see people = bodies working, going to school, studying etc but as regards the realisation that all of that are only thoughts, sensations and feelings transformed into actions which simply come and go, they = we= me -characters are only ideas, only shapes, forms, who=which are empty
just imaginations ...
oh gosh
sorry
kasia

[kasia]

hi Vivien,
thank you for your support! I'm truly grateful!

What is the difference between a happening and a doing?

yes, all is happening: the colours, the sounds, the shapes etc
honestly, I thought that the work can be done, so the difference between happening and doing would be there: in different actions but ... than I realised that a doing is made of single happenings ... just of separate movements which are happening ...
so it seems that there is no difference between a happening and a doing ...

What about sensations? Are they happening or the me-character doing them?

the sensations are happening, similar to the thoughts, just come and go, without any control of the me-character

And how about feelings? Are they something the me-character does or something that is given?

feelings like sensations and thoughts just come and go
the me-character is not able to decide to feel love or hate or so ...

Now look, what is not given?
What is not happening effortlessly and needs your doing?
Is there anything that is not just spontaneously arising?

it seems that nothing needs my doing, that everything is just spontaneously arising, even a decision to follow the thought about for example to start working or going on vacation because this decision is also a thought ...which is actually arising ...

Is the me-character doing anything in life?
Or is the me-character given? As an idea? Or as a self-directed, autonomous entity?

it seems that the me-character does everything but it's like a space where (or through which) different thoughts, sensations, feelings and actions are just happening
on the conventional level we see people = bodies working, going to school, studying etc but as regards the realisation that all of that are only thoughts, sensations and feelings transformed into actions which simply come and go, they = we= me -characters are only ideas, only shapes, forms, who=which are empty
just imaginations ...
oh gosh
sorry
kasia

[kasia]

hi Vivien,
thank you for your support! I'm truly grateful!

What is the difference between a happening and a doing?

yes, all is happening: the colours, the sounds, the shapes etc
honestly, I thought that the work can be done, so the difference between happening and doing would be there: in different actions but ... than I realised that a doing is made of single happenings ... just of separate movements which are happening ...
so it seems that there is no difference between a happening and a doing ...

What about sensations? Are they happening or the me-character doing them?

the sensations are happening, similar to the thoughts, just come and go, without any control of the me-character

And how about feelings? Are they something the me-character does or something that is given?

feelings like sensations and thoughts just come and go
the me-character is not able to decide to feel love or hate or so ...

Now look, what is not given?
What is not happening effortlessly and needs your doing?
Is there anything that is not just spontaneously arising?

it seems that nothing needs my doing, that everything is just spontaneously arising, even a decision to follow the thought about for example to start working or going on vacation because this decision is also a thought ...which is actually arising ...

Is the me-character doing anything in life?
Or is the me-character given? As an idea? Or as a self-directed, autonomous entity?

it seems that the me-character does everything but it's like a space where (or through which) different thoughts, sensations, feelings and actions are just happening
on the conventional level we see people = bodies working, going to school, studying etc but as regards the realisation that all of that are only thoughts, sensations and feelings transformed into actions which simply come and go, they = we= me -characters are only ideas, only shapes, forms, who=which are empty
just imaginations ...
oh gosh
sorry
kasia

[kasia]

hi Vivien,
thank you for your support! I'm truly grateful!

What is the difference between a happening and a doing?

yes, all is happening: the colours, the sounds, the shapes etc
honestly, I thought that the work can be done, so the difference between happening and doing would be there: in different actions but ... than I realised that a doing is made of single happenings ... just of separate movements which are happening ...
so it seems that there is no difference between a happening and a doing ...

What about sensations? Are they happening or the me-character doing them?

the sensations are happening, similar to the thoughts, just come and go, without any control of the me-character

And how about feelings? Are they something the me-character does or something that is given?

feelings like sensations and thoughts just come and go
the me-character is not able to decide to feel love or hate or so ...

Now look, what is not given?
What is not happening effortlessly and needs your doing?
Is there anything that is not just spontaneously arising?

it seems that nothing needs my doing, that everything is just spontaneously arising, even a decision to follow the thought about for example to start working or going on vacation because this decision is also a thought ...which is actually arising ...

Is the me-character doing anything in life?
Or is the me-character given? As an idea? Or as a self-directed, autonomous entity?

it seems that the me-character does everything but it's like a space where (or through which) different thoughts, sensations, feelings and actions are just happening
on the conventional level we see people = bodies working, going to school, studying etc but as regards the realisation that all of that are only thoughts, sensations and feelings transformed into actions which simply come and go, they = we= me -characters are only ideas, only shapes, forms, who=which are empty
just imaginations ...
oh gosh
sorry
kasia

[kasia]

hi Vivien,
thank you for your support! I'm truly grateful!

What is the difference between a happening and a doing?

yes, all is happening: the colours, the sounds, the shapes etc
honestly, I thought that the work can be done, so the difference between happening and doing would be there: in different actions but ... than I realised that a doing is made of single happenings ... just of separate movements which are happening ...
so it seems that there is no difference between a happening and a doing ...

What about sensations? Are they happening or the me-character doing them?

the sensations are happening, similar to the thoughts, just come and go, without any control of the me-character

And how about feelings? Are they something the me-character does or something that is given?

feelings like sensations and thoughts just come and go
the me-character is not able to decide to feel love or hate or so ...

Now look, what is not given?
What is not happening effortlessly and needs your doing?
Is there anything that is not just spontaneously arising?

it seems that nothing needs my doing, that everything is just spontaneously arising, even a decision to follow the thought about for example to start working or going on vacation because this decision is also a thought ...which is actually arising ...

Is the me-character doing anything in life?
Or is the me-character given? As an idea? Or as a self-directed, autonomous entity?

it seems that the me-character does everything but it's like a space where (or through which) different thoughts, sensations, feelings and actions are just happening
on the conventional level we see people = bodies working, going to school, studying etc but as regards the realisation that all of that are only thoughts, sensations and feelings transformed into actions which simply come and go, they = we= me -characters are only ideas, only shapes, forms, who=which are empty
just imaginations ...
oh gosh
sorry
kasia

[kasia]

hi Vivien,
thank you for your support! I'm truly grateful!

What is the difference between a happening and a doing?

yes, all is happening: the colours, the sounds, the shapes etc
honestly, I thought that the work can be done, so the difference between happening and doing would be there: in different actions but ... than I realised that a doing is made of single happenings ... just of separate movements which are happening ...
so it seems that there is no difference between a happening and a doing ...

What about sensations? Are they happening or the me-character doing them?

the sensations are happening, similar to the thoughts, just come and go, without any control of the me-character

And how about feelings? Are they something the me-character does or something that is given?

feelings like sensations and thoughts just come and go
the me-character is not able to decide to feel love or hate or so ...

Now look, what is not given?
What is not happening effortlessly and needs your doing?
Is there anything that is not just spontaneously arising?

it seems that nothing needs my doing, that everything is just spontaneously arising, even a decision to follow the thought about for example to start working or going on vacation because this decision is also a thought ...which is actually arising ...

Is the me-character doing anything in life?
Or is the me-character given? As an idea? Or as a self-directed, autonomous entity?

it seems that the me-character does everything but it's like a space where (or through which) different thoughts, sensations, feelings and actions are just happening
on the conventional level we see people = bodies working, going to school, studying etc but as regards the realisation that all of that are only thoughts, sensations and feelings transformed into actions which simply come and go, they = we= me -characters are only ideas, only shapes, forms, who=which are empty
just imaginations ...
oh gosh
sorry
kasia

[kasia]

hi Vivien,
thank you for your support! I'm truly grateful!

What is the difference between a happening and a doing?

yes, all is happening: the colours, the sounds, the shapes etc
honestly, I thought that the work can be done, so the difference between happening and doing would be there: in different actions but ... than I realised that a doing is made of single happenings ... just of separate movements which are happening ...
so it seems that there is no difference between a happening and a doing ...

What about sensations? Are they happening or the me-character doing them?

the sensations are happening, similar to the thoughts, just come and go, without any control of the me-character

And how about feelings? Are they something the me-character does or something that is given?

feelings like sensations and thoughts just come and go
the me-character is not able to decide to feel love or hate or so ...

Now look, what is not given?
What is not happening effortlessly and needs your doing?
Is there anything that is not just spontaneously arising?

it seems that nothing needs my doing, that everything is just spontaneously arising, even a decision to follow the thought about for example to start working or going on vacation because this decision is also a thought ...which is actually arising ...

Is the me-character doing anything in life?
Or is the me-character given? As an idea? Or as a self-directed, autonomous entity?

it seems that the me-character does everything but it's like a space where (or through which) different thoughts, sensations, feelings and actions are just happening
on the conventional level we see people = bodies working, going to school, studying etc but as regards the realisation that all of that are only thoughts, sensations and feelings transformed into actions which simply come and go, they = we= me -characters are only ideas, only shapes, forms, who=which are empty
just imaginations ...
oh gosh
sorry
kasia

[kasia]

hi Vivien,
thank you for your support! I'm truly grateful!

What is the difference between a happening and a doing?

yes, all is happening: the colours, the sounds, the shapes etc
honestly, I thought that the work can be done, so the difference between happening and doing would be there: in different actions but ... than I realised that a doing is made of single happenings ... just of separate movements which are happening ...
so it seems that there is no difference between a happening and a doing ...

What about sensations? Are they happening or the me-character doing them?

the sensations are happening, similar to the thoughts, just come and go, without any control of the me-character

And how about feelings? Are they something the me-character does or something that is given?

feelings like sensations and thoughts just come and go
the me-character is not able to decide to feel love or hate or any other feeling

Now look, what is not given?
What is not happening effortlessly and needs your doing?
Is there anything that is not just spontaneously arising?

it seems that nothing needs my doing, that everything is just spontaneously arising, even a decision to follow the thought about for example to start working or going on vacation because this decision is also a thought ...which is actually arising ...

Is the me-character doing anything in life?
Or is the me-character given? As an idea? Or as a self-directed, autonomous entity?

it seems that the me-character does everything but it's actually more like a space where (or through which) different thoughts, sensations, feelings and life-/ live- actions are just happening
on the conventional level we see people = bodies working, going to school, studying etc but as regards the realisation that all of that are only thoughts, sensations and feelings transformed into actions which simply come and go, they = we= me -characters are only ideas, only shapes, forms, who=which are empty
just imaginations ...
oh gosh
sorry
kasia

[Vivien]

Hi Kasia,

honestly, I thought that the work can be done, so the difference between happening and doing would be there: in different actions but ... than I realised that a doing is made of single happenings ... just of separate movements which are happening ...

Just watch what the body does in your daily life. Watch when preparing food, eating, washing your hands, showering, typing, driving, walking, etc.

Is there any doership in those activities?

Is there a mover of the body?
Is there a walker?
Is there a doer in reality?

Or any movement, without any exception, just happens on its own?

Vivien

[kasia]

hi Vivien,
something interesting's happened today
I've been watching a few videos from Ilona and while watching one about controller I felt a mysterious pain in the body, actually in my legs and back and honestly everywhere so I tried to reduce it through particular movements and stretching but it didn't help ... than I noticed a thought: accept it how it is: attention instead tension. I stopped moving, the experience was strange because I could feel the pain waves moving inside the body on an unknown level and the pain truly has gone through the body ...
after that arrived another thought: can you see now that you are able to control the pain? - a strange or a well know voice inside were speaking to me ... without any response (verbal thought) I just moved (my body moved = there was knowing in the movement, it happened automatically, beyond any control) and I went to bathroom
when I was setting in the bath I realised that there is no dividing line between my body and the water (what we all already know floating in the sea of course but this time the experience was really fresh)
could you please help me to answer the questions:
1. why the thought to protect the ego (illusory controller) appeared if there is no ego at all? how is that possible? where the voice came from? what a voice it was? it was very strange, I definitely wasn't the creator of it or of the thought - truly first hand experience of not-being a creator of thoughts at all!!!! I used to hear that voice in the past whilst meditating and always supposed that's my ego is talking to me ...
does it mean that the illusory controller pretends to protect itself?
2. and the thought about acceptance ... was is simple coming from a conscious mind?
3. who has been aware of them both?
sorry if that goes beyond the investigation ... the questions are not about intellectual understanding, they are part of honest investigation of the experiences (that was the intention anyway)
thank you for reading this
kasia

[Vivien]

Hi Kasia,

why the thought to protect the ego (illusory controller) appeared if there is no ego at all? how is that possible?

You might not like my answers, but there is no point of trying to answer the mind’s questions… since that’s just more thought…. More dream. Rather, question the questions themselves.

So look, what is asking these questions?
To whom these questions matter to?

where the voice came from? what a voice it was?

Look and see. Is there a source for the mental voice? Or any source is just a speculation? Another line in that mental narrative?

truly first hand experience of not-being a creator of thoughts at all!!!!

Great! This is where you have to put your attention. To see this more and more.

2. and the thought about acceptance ... was is simple coming from a conscious mind?

There is still a belief here that acceptance is done by someone or something.

Acceptance is not a doing. Actually, it’s the absence of doing something.
It’s the absence of resistance (doing resisting).

sorry if that goes beyond the investigation ... the questions are not about intellectual understanding,

Yes, it is all intellectual. And although thoughts might suggest that it’s super important to understand this, but actually it isn’t. Trying to understand it is a step away from seeing it, living it. Rather stay with the experience.

Conceptual understanding is an escape from being with what is here now.

You haven’t replied to my previous questions. Please look at them, since every single question I give you is a pointer for you where to look. If you miss them you deprive yourself from discovering something new.

So please go back and look with them, and reply to them one-by-one.

Vivien

[kasia]

hi Vivien,
thank you for being there/ here :)

Just watch what the body does in your daily life. Watch when preparing food, eating, washing your hands, showering, typing, driving, walking, etc.

Is there any doership in those activities?

no, there is not, the movements are just happening, the body knows how to walk, wash, eat etc.
simple movements happens automatically
all skills are given, there is only an access to them needed or they have to be learned/ recognised
(walking as a baby, riding a bike etc.)... however it would mean that someone has to learn...

Is there a mover of the body?
Is there a walker?
Is there a doer in reality?

no, there is no mover of the body, the body moves on its own
no, there is no walker, there is a body/mind walking or there is just walking seen/felt/expressed through a walking body
so there is no doer in reality, there is a reality expressed through the process of doing=creating=single movements and/or actions

Or any movement, without any exception, just happens on its own?

if seen enough closely, yes, any movement just happens on its own, including all movements whilst working = sewing a bag or so
however it's not easy to see very closely, seen in that way happens on its own but with some effort = beyond the common way to see, effort in the meaning of gaining access to ability to see it closely, to focus on the raw experience etc
so I'm not sure about "without any exceptions"... or it's just about gaining access or not, focusing on the first hand experience or not focusing, it just happens or not, making an effort or not, everything without any subject doing or not doing this or that
Vivien, thank you for your patience!
kasia

[Vivien]

Hi Kasia,

all skills are given, there is only an access to them needed or they have to be learned/ recognised
(walking as a baby, riding a bike etc.)... however it would mean that someone has to learn...

So what is there that could learn a skill? Kasia? An I? Me?
Where is that one?

Is a person needed to learn a skill? Is a learner needed? Or learning can happen on its own, without someone DOING the learning?

however it's not easy to see very closely, seen in that way happens on its own but with some effort = beyond the common way to see, effort in the meaning of gaining access to ability to see it closely, to focus on the raw experience etc
so I'm not sure about "without any exceptions"... or it's just about gaining access or not, focusing on the first hand experience or not focusing, it just happens or not, making an effort or not, everything without any subject doing or not doing this or that

Look for the one who is DOING the effort. The one that is efforting. Where is that one?
Where is the one making effort?
Is there actually someone, or only thoughts suggest so?

Is it possible that effort is just another thing that happens on its own?

Is there a person needed to make effort, Or….. even effort happens effortlessly without a doer?

Vivien

[kasia]

hi Vivien,
I spent the weekend on the countryside meditating and truly looking closely to the raw experiences. It was a precious time!

So what is there that could learn a skill? Kasia? An I? Me?
Where is that one?

there is nobody real who could learn a skill, just an imagined character called Kasia

Is a person needed to learn a skill? Is a learner needed? Or learning can happen on its own, without someone DOING the learning?

learning is a process happening on its own

Look for the one who is DOING the effort. The one that is efforting. Where is that one?
Where is the one making effort?
Is there actually someone, or only thoughts suggest so?

Is it possible that effort is just another thing that happens on its own?

Is there a person needed to make effort, Or….. even effort happens effortlessly without a doer?

there is no real one who is doing the effort
looking very closely there is no effort at all, everything is just happening on it self, it's given and it's evolving, processing, expressing, happening on it self
it is all to see in a calm, peaceful state of mind, effortlessly and clearly
however there is still a subtle "something" that there is "someone" behind the eyes looking ...
thank you
with love,
kasia