Seeing that Frees

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Mamaki,

No! I realise now that I really don't have that kind of control beyond an intention.

Could you even say that you have control over intention?

It comes and goes and sometimes I wonder if I've made any progress at all.

Does "progress" presume a linear and constant improvement?

I don't know for sure what has brought how I am into being.

Is the story of how necessary to be?

I have become more loving of myself which I'm attributing to practising loving kindness meditation over many years and yet its not always consistent.

Ah, cause & effect. What links these two happenings? What says that one comes from the other, or one precedes the other?
Oh, and that loving, compassionate way of being, shines as fear dissolves.

I am generally more skillful

This sounds like hard work. Like pushing the river.
i get what you mean by "skillful", but the real skill comes in learning how to let it happen.

Story says:
'I'm a bad person who needs to change for the better to benefit myself and more importantly others!'

Haha. A better story is that the peace and equanimity that evokes that benefit already exists beneath the turmoil of seeking.(& always has)


with love

vince

[Mamaki]

Good day vince (or is it night?)

No! I realise now that I really don't have that kind of control beyond an intention.

Could you even say that you have control over intention?

I guess intention just arises like choice. So no I don't even have control over intention. Intention probably just happens and a thought story owns it and says its come from me...?

It comes and goes and sometimes I wonder if I've made any progress at all.

Does "progress" presume a linear and constant improvement?

Yes, I think it does with regards part of my Buddhist conditioning using a developmental model..I'm thinking what other possibilities could there be? A holistic holographic improvement. This is just conceptual though I think there's something in it.
In my direct experience positive 'improvement' like a skillful mental state of grattitude is dependent on conditions. Sometimes life happens in a supportive array of conditions for that to arise and other times the conditions are different and it can't arise. Or something like that.
I can't decide that I'm going to become more and more grateful every day and bank on it happening. I think I feel a bit defeated in this regard. No doubt this is a good thing, eh?

I don't know for sure what has brought how I am into being.

Is the story of how necessary to be?
No, being just happens by itself.

I have become more loving of myself which I'm attributing to practising loving kindness meditation over many years and yet its not always consistent.

Ah, cause & effect. What links these two happenings?

The way you ask this question challenges my story about 'time'...a linear view is only one way to look at experience.  It says that A comes before B and causes it. It's a story.
However I think it's more likely that cause and effect are multi dimensional, more  with a co-arising of conditions. But that's conceptual- its what I've heard and I can't think of examples when I've experienced that!

What says that one comes from the other, or one precedes the other?

The story of 'I'. The story that humans perpetuate when referring to history that conditions us all to tell that linear story.

Oh, and that loving, compassionate way of being, shines as fear dissolves.
Beautiful! I so want that.

I am generally more skillful

This sounds like hard work. Like pushing the river.
i get what you mean by "skillful", but the real skill comes in learning how to let it happen.
This comment made me teary!

Story says:
'I'm a bad person who needs to change for the better to benefit myself and more importantly others!'

Haha. A better story is that the peace and equanimity that evokes that benefit already exists beneath the turmoil of seeking.(& always has)
Wow, how I yearn for this !

I'm not sure how to look for all this in my direct experience...

Much grattitude

Love mamaki

[vinceschubert]

Good morning Mamaki,

This is just conceptual though

Concepts can be fun to play with. ..as long as we don't get sucked in to believing them to be something that they are not.

A holistic holographic improvement.

Your statement propelled me into an area where i am somewhat obsessed with improving. My golf game. Here, defining improvement is interesting. Every round is a mixture of good and not so good shots. ..and some really bad ones. My average score hasn't changed for months now, yet i now lose fewer balls than i used to. Is this improvement?
Of course, improvement itself is conceptual. It is a memory comparison. Like cause and effect, it takes a memory with a label 'first' and compares it with one labelled 'later'. Then it has an opinion, a judgement about that.
What happens if we overlay that conceptualization on current experiencing?

Sometimes life happens in a supportive array of conditions for that to arise and other times the conditions are different and it can't arise. Or something like that.

Absolutely. That's a useful story. Especially if we surrender to the mystery of how it actually happens. Then we are left with joy and wonder. Wonder Full.

I think I feel a bit defeated in this regard. No doubt this is a good thing, eh?

Yes, a move closer to that welcome surrender.

However I think it's more likely that cause and effect are multi dimensional, more with a co-arising of conditions. But that's conceptual- its what I've heard

Well, we definitely respond to stories, and that's a good one. i like the dependent arising story.

I can't think of examples when I've experienced that!

Every time that i visit (cause & effect) i am in awe of the wonder fullness of how anything works. i am sitting here tapping keys. Is this an example of experiencing it? (how did i wake up. Get up. Get dressed. How did your post eventuate on this screen. Where are the particular key taps coming from. Wow)

What says that one comes from the other, or one precedes the other?

The story of 'I'

Hmm okay. Thought was the answer in this mind when asking the question.

that loving, compassionate way of being, shines as fear dissolves.

I so want that.

You already have it. Once seeking is dropped, it will be revealed. (my story)

to let it happen.

This comment made me teary!

Was it an expression of release?

I'm not sure how to look for all this in my direct experience...

Just look to (memory of) body instead of thought stories about...

with love

vince

[Mamaki]

Hiya vince

Many thanks for such a fullsome response to my last post. Really enjoyed reading.

Liked the part about wonder.

My homework from Ilona is to explore wonder. So it feels like synchronicity.

Talking about improvement conceptually you said

it takes a memory with a label 'first' and compares it with one labelled 'later'. Then it has an opinion, a judgement about that.
What happens if we overlay that conceptualization on current experiencing?

If i label what's happening as better or worse than a previous time i think 2 things happen

1. Not fully experiencing what's happening now as thoughts of comparison overlay what's actually happening

2. I'm either satisfied or dissatisfied with my current 'progress' and am thinking i own it and can control it. That I have either been successful or unsuccessful in my improvement aim...

I definitely do these frequently and there is either inflation or anxiety or some other emotion which hijacks simple experience.

Was it an expression of release?

Yes, I think it was the longing to drop the struggle

Just look to (memory of) body instead of thought stories about...

So hard to do without a comparison of am I getting better at this or worse! I'm not sure. Is this something that comes with practise? I feel I'm getting overly conceptual! Yet I'm remembering to return to simple sensations with awareness more frequently in day to day life...
Thanks for your golfing example 👍

Blessings and wonder

Love mamaki

[Mamaki]

P.S

Yes, I think it was the longing to drop the struggle

The longing to drop it and the hint that pushing the river is unnecessary, struggle is not necessary. What a relief!

[vinceschubert]

Good morning Mamaki,

there is either inflation or anxiety or some other emotion that hijacks simple experience.

i know what you mean, but if we go down a level, the inflation or anxiety, etc is the experiencing. Along with that is the "should/shouldn't" story and the reaction to that.
So, although there is the story of how good it will be when this doesn't happen anymore, there is also the opportunity to appreciate that the peace, the equanimity exists beneath all of this. With this appreciation (which is also a welcome surrender) comes the feeling that even the shitty stuff is ok. It's just visiting until conditioning changes how much and how often it comes.

Not fully experiencing what's happening now as thoughts of comparison overlay what's actually happening

Those thoughts, although they hijacked the original happening, they (& the response to them) become what is actually happening.

So hard to do without a comparison

Ah, great segue here. Here's a story about conditioning (habit) and how to change it.
In the brain, the neuronal pathways (created by synaptic connections) that are used repeatedly are enhanced. They are made stronger and more efficient by frequent use.
When we become aware that they are no longer useful, there are two ways that they can be decommissioned.
They can be pruned or they can atrophy from lack of use.
Neither of these seems to be able to be consciously controlled, but we can indirectly affect change.
Firstly, observe an intent to change.
Secondly, when awareness of that undesirable happening occurs - laugh. Anything from a loud guffaw to a smile, or even a mental chuckle. This thwarts the completion of the old behavior and robs it of the satisfaction factor. It also floods the body with feel-good hormones.
& thirdly, imagine the new neuronal pathway being established that replaces the undesirable one.
On the second point.. the awareness of the habitual response. You will come to recognize triggers. Usually, some intense emotion will arise in response to a situation.
In a fairly short time, you will come to recognize that a trigger has happened but the response to it is short-circuited by the awareness of it. It simply won't eventuate and you will see the new response (a chuckle) happen instead.

with love

vince

[Mamaki]

Dear vince

Much appreciation for your response.

I really resonated with this 'welcome surrender' of appreciating the equanimity beneath all of this. The idea and language really opened me up.

Today I seem to have let go of trying to engineer the shift in perception that I'm seeking. I feel lighter and more allowing of any kind of experience.

Your suggestion to chuckle when an intended change doesn't result in the desired outcome and then to imagine a new neuronal pathway sounds great but too much like hard work thought says!

And instead I'm trusting the process of looking without trying to do it.  I'm open to trying out your suggestion but motivation hasn't arisen yet!

I had a question arise.
If there is no controller steering things then that's ok for meeting what's arising now but I fear all my positive karma will run out quickly so that no new positivity will be created for the future and I will degenerate! My memory will continue to degenerate too!

There's still an assumption of control here that I can influence future events now. I thought it through more and realised that the future like the present is not controlled by me. It will probably be created by habit and multiple knowable and unknowable factors already flowing as life.

Hmmmm.

Many blessings

Love mamaki

[vinceschubert]

Good morning Mamaki,

I'm open to trying out your suggestion but motivation hasn't arisen yet!

Ha, the idea that you will DO the exercise, it just that. An idea. You have already seen that another idea, that of control, is an illusion.
Thoughts arise. The one that might be labelled 'Recognition' will happen or not. If it does, then because of the now present condition that happened when you read the exercise, a laugh might happen too. No effort. No DOing. Just wonder at where it comes from.

I feel lighter and more allowing of any kind of experience.

This feels beautiful as I read it.
Absolutely, the resisting, the 'shoulds' overlaid on experiencing clouds the equanimity that experiencing rests on.

If there is no controller steering things then that's ok for meeting what's arising now but I fear all my positive karma will run out quickly so that no new positivity will be created for the future and I will degenerate!

Ha (chuckle here) This is a classic case of thought doing what it does. What is that?

There's still an assumption of control here that I can influence future events now. I thought it through more and realised that the future like the present is not controlled by me. It will probably be created by habit and multiple knowable and unknowable factors already flowing as life.

The future exists as a story. There is no actuality to it. Like the past, it exists only as mental activity. Even that which resides between the past and the future is a concept. Take a moment and contemplate NOW, and watch it morph into THIS.
..but let's not deny the arising of the story about karma. Is that current experiencing?
Have you yet recognized anything about it?

with love

vince

[Mamaki]

Good day vince

..

.a laugh might happen too. No effort. No DOing.
Just wonder at where it comes from.

Where the laugh comes from? How did I decide to recognise and laugh? A mystery! Decision happened outside of my awareness!

I fear all my positive karma will run out quickly so that no new positivity will be created for the future and I will degenerate!

Ha (chuckle here) This is a classic case of thought doing what it does. What is that?

What is it that thought does?
Is it riding on the back of a feeling of fear or is the idea causing fear to arise? This thought of degeneration (and feeling of fear) seems to be protective of the I. Maybe it warns of potential danger in following this form of enquiry.

Take a moment and contemplate NOW, and watch it morph into THIS.

Yes THIS is definitely a better description of what's here NOW. Its connecting me with everything. NOW feels so brief and alone!

.

.but let's not deny the arising of the story about karma.
Is that current experiencing?

The karma story is theoretical. The way I see it is in the buddhist sense.
Feelings and sensations arise on the basis of past actions (as well as a number of other factors - karma is only one of 5 causes) and are neutral until thought and feeling starts to respond to them.
Current experience is feelings, sensations and thoughts including karma story thoughts. Experience is simple and doesn't need a theory.

Have you yet recognized anything about it?

It's another story about experience. It doesn't help me to stay with direct experience. It's just a pointer that to some extent counteracts my conditioned thinking and is a better description of how things happen.

So grateful for this dialogue 🙏

Love mamaki

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Mamaki,

Where the laugh comes from?

Does it arrive from anywhere?
"where does it come from" is just thoughts doing thought things. It is meaningless. It's like asking "where is the sun on a cloudy day?"

How did I decide to recognise and laugh?

Was deciding a factor in it happening?
If there is an intention to do it, does that translate into a decision?
Where did the intention come from?
Mind can tell the story that because i mentioned it in a post, that the intention happened. There were responses when reading about it that said "yes" or "no" or "maybe" that gave the intention a 'flavour', that made it more or less likely, but when it comes down to it, an intention happened, recognizing happens, laughing happens - or not.

What is it that thought does?

Is it riding on the back of a feeling of fear or is the idea causing fear to arise?

Yes, thought creates stories. ..and most likely the second bit. The fear is a response to the story.

This thought of degeneration (and feeling of fear) seems to be protective of the I.

Yes, there is validity in this. We are destroying the I (at least the delusion that there is one that needs protecting.

Maybe it warns of potential danger in following this form of enquiry.

Yes, absolutely. If you want to keep that I, if you just want a more comfortable dream, then you'd better quit this inquiry. It is totally destructive of the old delusions.

Current experience is feelings, sensations and thoughts including karma story thoughts. Experience is simple and doesn't need a theory.

True, although theory (stories) can be entertaining. We just need to remember that they are ABOUT stuff and not the actual.
One story that maybe the Karma story arose from is that of habit. The organism is amazing and wonder full and does a lot of thing to make life easier. For example you don't need to think to button your shirt or tie your shoelaces. In the same way if you consistently relate to others with compassion then it is more likely to happen. ..and doing that is more likely to evoke that in return.

It doesn't help me to stay with direct experience. It's just a pointer that to some extent counteracts my conditioned thinking and is a better description of how things happen.

Yes, exactly. Direct experiencing is so very fleeting. So much so that we can (almost) say that absolutely everything arises out of story.

with love

vince

[Mamaki]

Hello again vince

"where does it come from" is just thoughts doing thought things. It is meaningless. It's like asking "where is the sun on a cloudy day?"

Ah yes, this is what thoughts do, haha

Was deciding a factor in it (laughing) happening?

I don't recall ever 'deciding' to do that. There was not an experience of deciding happening.

If there is an intention to do it, does that translate into a decision?

Mmmm? Not necessarily. In fact I was surprised it happened because I was pretty ambivalent about the exercise.
Sometimes with other things I really want to do it feels as if intention can firm up and feel like a decision...however there is noone deciding - the action arises from nowhere and as you say thought then describes it as an intention or even decision.

Where did the intention come from?

From behind the clouds ⛅!
A meaningless thought question!

Mind can tell the story that because i mentioned it in a post, that the intention happened.

Interesting...

There were responses when reading about it that said "yes" or "no" or "maybe" that gave the intention a 'flavour',

Yes, mainly a no! Too hard, can't do it!

that made it more or less likely, but when it comes down to it, an intention happened,

Yes I thought it was a good idea but didn't feel motivated to do it. So it surprised me when it happened.

recognizing happens,

The recognising feels pretty random like I'm not sure I'm doing the exercise as you suggested it but just having a stab at it...

laughing happens - or not.

Yes, quite it happens or doesnt happen, who knows why that is?
So I'm curious as to why you say a decision didn't happen?

Yes, absolutely. If you want to keep that I, if you just want a more comfortable dream, then you'd better quit this inquiry. It is totally destructive of the old delusions.

Crikey, yes good to be reminded. I'm not turning back yet! But no idea where I will end up! If I will quit or not further down the line. I hope not...but how can I know?
I certainly love and crave ease and comfort. I avoid fear as much as possible. Yet this truth of no separate self seems far too important to fudge. I feel there's less to lose now.

One story that maybe the Karma story arose from is that of habit. The organism is amazing and wonder full and does a lot of thing to make life easier. For example you don't need to think to button your shirt or tie your shoelaces. In the same way if you consistently relate to others with compassion then it is more likely to happen. ..and doing that is more likely to evoke that in return.

This is a very helpful example thankyou

Yes, exactly. Direct experiencing is so very fleeting. So much so that we can (almost) say that absolutely everything arises out of story.

Mmmm, that is mind-boggling but probably true!

with love

mamaki

[vinceschubert]

Good morning Mamaki, Describe how the illusion of an independent self came into being by giving examples from actual experience.
Then give some experiential examples of how life changed for you after seeing through this illusion.
Can you remember any specific enquiry that resulted in an epiphany? ..a before and after seeing the actuality of the Self
Take each of these and find examples in experience for each of them. Decision, intention, free will, choice, control and responsibility. On looking for an example of that which no longer exists, then an example from before and another from after it changed.

with love

vince

[Mamaki]

houghts asking and thoughts answering and experience happening

Hi again vince

Describe how the illusion of an independent self came into being by giving examples from actual experience.

im not sure how to answer this. are you asking the first time it came into existence like when i was a baby? or do you mean currently when it arises?

As a baby i dont remember a first time i had a sense of an independent self separate from my mum. But currently I see it arise as a narrative or line of thought claiming ownership of experience. the seeing of it just as a story is not always present and so i still feel very much caught up in it.
This morning on reading your reply a range of responses.
The suggestion that i had seen through the illusion shocked me. And i thought no i havent but then i thought what if i have a little bit? Then I felt more expansive and looked more deeply into what has been happening these last few weeks. i tend to doubt so this approach flipped that over a bit and allowed more perspective. i realise that i have expectations of feeling and seeing differently as a result of seeing through the illusion. i expect a dark night of the soul and a dramatic shift. none of these so far just a gentle enjoyment of this enquiry.
This morning at work a feeling of pride as i handled a range of different things well. A thought sentence that i am good, clever etc. Then thoughts that i am not always like this and i dont know why that is really. Just changing conditions i guess...concluding story...

Then give some experiential examples of how life changed for you after seeing through this illusion.

I'm not convinced I have seen through it experientially.
But I do feel less reactive with my partner since starting the enquiry. I don't take her criticism so personally.
I had a video dialogue with Ilona this afternoon and talked about some of these questions
We did an exercise of being asked to raise arm or not. Who or what decided? I used to assume it was me. A logical conclusion based on thoughts and actions. But I couldn't say at what point a decision was made. The arm just raised itself with thoughts of being a good girl just trying to please!

After further exploration there was simply a subtle sense of awareness of all this, all thats here, a sense of me being irrelevant really in a gentle way.

Can you remember any specific enquiry that resulted in an epiphany? ..a before and after seeing the actuality of the Self

Something around intention and decision. When you said I may have told the story of an intention from reading your exercise suggestion. i had just assumed an intention had been made but then seeing that that was just a story too it made me realise intuitively that that must be the nature of everything or something like that.

Take each of these and find examples in experience for each of them.

Assuming there is some kind of before and after...
Decision, before - it was definitely mine, I could take the credit and the blame.
Somehow the credit felt like a blessing from a higher power whilst the blame felt like it was me! A painful story which was a cosy default setting. Decision now - decision happens and I dont know how or why and so far im ok with that. i feel a bit more curious about how things will turn out. An evening walk today and everything felt more simple and expansive, feet experiencing every step and not much thought. the route planned was verbalised in the mind lightly and it was roughly 'followed' without expectation.

intention happens. its not necessarily one stream as you demonstrated in your example of mixed responses. i had wondered why i laughed in the way you suggested in your exercise seeing as i had not really wanted to do the exercise, i.e. no real intention. looking back it seems i had a mixture of responses and the laugh rode on the back of that combo along with other waves of life happening possibly?!

free will, Thought and emotion had a lot of energy around this topic. Thought was recalling all the conditioning of freedom to choose, a basic human right, yes? Experience sees that free will is impossible although there are actions and movements which happen 'as' me (to use Ilona's approach). Thought expected a real fight with this one but experience is ok about it. Thought wonders how long this will last!

control, Control still feels strong! I had a sense of potency at work this morning that I was controlling the quality of communication. But I also felt a curiosity at how this was arising, like it wasnt me making it happen.

responsibility, I have long harboured stories about not being responsible enough. like its somehing i should be but am a failure at! in recent years i have had the privelege of leading things that i really enjoy and sharing that with others. it didnt really feel like responsibility in an arduous sense but i would get a lot of fear having to speak in public.
i feel now that the responsibility is not mine i dont know where it resides, perhaps a higher power, but really its a mystery.

I hope I have done your questions justice and been honest .it did feel a bit hard to write.

Much appreciation vince

Blessings Mamaki

[vinceschubert]

Good morning Mamaki,

are you asking the first time it came into existence like when i was a baby? or do you mean currently when it arises?

I see it arise as a narrative or line of thought claiming ownership of experience.

i was asking how that narrative was established.

i still feel very much caught up in it.

Is this all of the time, or does it ebb and flow?

i realise that i have expectations of feeling and seeing differently as a result of seeing through the illusion. i expect a dark night of the soul and a dramatic shift. none of these so far just a gentle enjoyment of this enquiry.

Ok, keep checking these expectations. They will change.
They do certainly get 'set up' when we read or hear of others' experiences.
Although there are some frequently occurring characteristics, every experience of 'waking up' is unique.
i, for one, didn't go through a dark night of the soul.

This morning at work a feeling of pride as i handled a range of different things well. A thought sentence that i am good, clever etc. Then thoughts that i am not always like this and i dont know why that is really. Just changing conditions i guess...concluding story...

Was there recognition at the time that this was story?

I hope I have done your questions justice

Yes, you did well.
More on what being 'awake' or 'liberated' means later... (this is a reminder for me)

with love

vince

[Mamaki]

Good day vince,

i was asking how that narrative was established.

This feels very hard to see. Thoughts are not very loud or obvious. Even when they are loud or insistent I only become aware once they are established. I don't seem to see them arise at the moment. I have been able to when in a more meditative state in the past but not so recently.
Feels like I'm swimming in thoughts, they are part of the water... but then I do see them as illusory quite often now.

I still feel very much caught up in it.

Is this all of the time, or does it ebb and flow?

It ebbs and flows. 2 days ago whilst answering your questions and speaking with Ilona I felt I had seen through. I could sense how separation from all of this is impossible. It was subtle and simple and obvious and not a dramatic traumatic loss of all I've ever cherished etc! I keep expecting a strong knock on effect of seeing everything differently but subtle relaxation into what's happening seems to be what's happening. And then I forget and everything feels normal especially in a group of people.

Ok, keep checking these expectations. They will change

.
Expectations are adjusting. There's a thought of mild disappointment that this is all it is (if I have had a glimpse) as well as a story of gradual realisation that this is a process of seeing and recognising and I can't know how it will unfold.

Was there recognition at the time that this was story?( "A thought sentence that i am good, clever etc. Then thoughts that i am not always like this") (

Yes, I saw the thoughts and felt the feelings and realised the illusion that these qualities belonged to me and should be credited to me.

Blessings and love

mamaki