The Gate

Also, I understand what you mean about meditation, and I agree when my mind is wandering.

However, when my mental activity calms down and my mind becomes silent, it is then that I can reach this realization. With my attention and focus relaxed, and having no thoughts, 'I' am able to directly experience this realization of 'my' true nature, which lasts until my mind wanders again.

I follow the direct method of meditating (similar to zen/ dzogchen) so once I experience this realization I know. I know we shouldn't talk about our experiences meditating but I understand it is pretty relevant right now.

Thanks

Hi SeekerJ, hope you're doing well.

I'm not familiar with any specific meditation types, it can be helpful for sure, but let's keep trying to see things as they are, you just need to look, no special "state of awareness" required, just what is right here.

I'd like to give you another looking exercise, it can be really useful if done with patience and curiosity.

We are looking at Direct Experience (DE), or Actual Experience (AE), as I explained before this is "made of" the 5 senses and thoughts as a phenomenon, but the thought content is NOT a real experience.

Try to really get into it so that you will experimentally see the difference.

1. pick some fruit, best if aromatic and juicy, a piece of orange or apple is great - a food you're very familiar with.
2. place it on the table in front of you.
3. With eyes closed, PRETEND that you are picking it up slowly, feel it, smell it, put it in your mouth. Chew it slowly and taste the pretend fruit, bring all your amazing memory and every bit of your imagination into this! Feel the texture and the taste, finally swallow it this pretend fruit.

In your most simple and immediate experience of smelling and tasting the pretend fruit:.
(a) What is the pretend smell made of? (what is it?)
(b) What is the pretend taste made of?

4. take the actual fruit, smell it for real, put it in your mouth, taste it carefully, chew and finally swallow.

Describe the real smell and taste
Describe the real texture

When you compare the two experiences, one composed of thoughts and imaginations about eating this apple, to eating the apple - what are your conclusions?
Could the thought fruit satisfy you?
Is it super clear why a though isn't a real experience?
Since the illusion is generated by thoughts, can you see why we cannot rely on thoughts to expose the illusion?

Please answer all these, and we'll return to the thought when I see that this is clear.
Regards,
Ron

Hi Ron,

After some direct exploration, I think I passed through the gate.

My sense of self is a concept created by thoughts. These thoughts attach 'I' labels to direct experiences to make me feel like I am the owner etc. However, the content of this collection of thoughts is imaginary and often inaccurate. Therefore, my sense of self is not real as it cannot be directly experienced or found, but is instead an imaginary thought.

As a thought cannot think by itself, then my sense of self cannot control thoughts as it is a thought and was created by thoughts. My sense of self is not my body or brain because my body and brain are real and exist despite thoughts, but my sense of self would not exist without thoughts.

As my sense of self is a thought then it cannot be separate from my thoughts or mind. My sense of self cannot exist without my brain but my brain can exist without thoughts. My brain creates thoughts and therefore my brain created the collection of thoughts which forms my sense of self. Therefore, it is not 'my' brain, but 'a' brain which created and controls my sense of self.

If I have no thoughts like during meditation then I lose my concept of self, and all the suffering of this illusion of the separate self with it. However, despite having no thoughts I can feel a sense of consciousness/ being-ness/ pure awareness but this is not personally limited to me but permeates all life and the limit of my body dissolves. This is who we truly are at our core.

As 'I' am an imaginary thought, I cannot control 'a' brain, but this brain determines all 'my' thoughts and actions and my life. 'I' have no control over my life. The brain has created my sense of self and with it my illusory sense that I am in control of my life. Everyone is the same as me. Life just happens without a 'me' or anyone else being in the control seat, and instead, I am a passenger, the brain is the driver, and everything appears in consciousness.

My sense of self cannot be liberated because it is the imaginary contents of a collection of thoughts and never separately existed from my mind or body in reality. As the contents of thoughts are often inaccurate then I should realize my sense of self being the content of thoughts is also likely to be inaccurate and should not be believed but examined. 'I' cannot improve my sense of self but 'my' brain can. 'I' can improve my mood to improve 'my' thoughts which will improve 'my' sense of self.



Also in answer to your questions:

In your most simple and immediate experience of smelling and tasting the pretend fruit:.
(a) What is the pretend smell made of? (what is it?) apple
(b) What is the pretend taste made of? sweet

4. take the actual fruit, smell it for real, put it in your mouth, taste it carefully, chew and finally swallow.

Describe the real smell and taste fresh, sweet
Describe the real texture smooth

When you compare the two experiences, one composed of thoughts and imaginations about eating this apple, to eating the apple - what are your conclusions?
Could the thought fruit satisfy you? yes but only momentarily. I need to eat
Is it super clear why a though isn't a real experience? yes, it cant replace my need to eat
Since the illusion is generated by thoughts, can you see why we cannot rely on thoughts to expose the illusion? yes because thoughts are an illusion them self

Hi SeekerJ,
Let me start from the fruit tasting exercise:

(a) What is the pretend smell made of? (what is it?) apple

The pretend smell is made of apple? Isn't it the pretend smell a thought? Where is the apple?

(b) What is the pretend taste made of? sweet

Isn't the pretend taste a thought? A thought has a real taste?

Describe the real smell and taste fresh, sweet
Describe the real texture smooth

I really hope that this is just you being lazy, because if this captures the experience of eating and sensing a fruit it means you did it while thinking about something else, and missed the whole point.

Could the thought fruit satisfy you? yes but only momentarily. I need to eat

Yes, the thought isn't nourishing, like drinking a mirage but that's only part of the experience. What you seem to have missed entirely is the huge difference between a thought about sense experience and the actual sense experience.

Is it super clear why a though isn't a real experience? yes, it cant replace my need to eat

Right, the thought content isn't a real thing, it can at best point to a real thing. But once again, did you notice how the thought experiment was nothing like the real deal? If that example was too mild, try thinking about putting an ice cube down your back vs the actual thing.

thoughts are an illusion them self

Let's be precise and clear. Thought are a real experience, they do occur. The content of thoughts, the image/sound etc are imagined, when that image is taken for reality illusion occurs. I hope this distinction is clear.

If any of the above isn't clear, please repeat this, you can do a simpler version of this, just use coffee/juice and pretend to drink, then drink.

Now to the rest.

My sense of self is a concept created by thoughts. These thoughts attach 'I' labels to direct experiences to make me feel like I am the owner etc. However, the content of this collection of thoughts is imaginary and often inaccurate. Therefore, my sense of self is not real as it cannot be directly experienced or found, but is instead an imaginary thought.

That's good.

As a thought cannot think by itself, then my sense of self cannot control thoughts as it is a thought and was created by thoughts.

OK

My sense of self is not my body or brain because my body and brain are real and exist despite thoughts, but my sense of self would not exist without thoughts.

Can the body and the brain be experienced? Or is the body and brain also a concept of thoughts? Something we'll explore once thinking is clear.

Your analysis in the next statements is an attempt to grasp and explain what you may have glimpsed. But it's another story with lots of claims that have no substance in reality. It assumes that there is a body made of matter in a world made of matter, and that there is a me inside a body looking out. Is that an experience or a belief? We'll see.

My sense of self cannot exist without my brain but my brain can exist without thoughts.

Is there direct evidence for this? Do you experience a brain now? How do you know that the brain creates thoughts? Zero evidence for that. Even if you tell me that EEG and f-MRI show activity in a brain, so does a radio play music, but is the radio creating music? And that analogy I used is also a faulty, and explanation in thoughts that cannot be seen, sensed, smelled. It's like the imagined fruit, a creation of imagination.


The rest is again an attempt to translate something you perhaps glimpsed, but rather than staying with it, you thought about, and it turned out to be like a new religion where there is a real brain that somehow controls the mind and the thoughts and moves the body... stories without any substance.

As long as you keep going back to thoughts to explain life you will fail.
Meditation states is worthless here, so what if no thoughts arise and there is peace and tranquility? Once it ends the stress and seeking is back, the point of awakening is to realize what's reality and what's a dream at any moment.

The "mind" is very tricky, and it will get "you" again and again.
I'm still not convinced you clearly see thought, so please repeat the thought exercise that that we can move on or spend more time on that.

I'm saying all this with the purpose of snapping you out of dreamland, you spend too much time thinking about this rather than looking at experience, it's a dead end. Watch the thoughts, watch how the body moves, find the thinker and the doer, are they real or imagined?

Thanks
Ron

I open my eyes look around and close my eyes. When my sight/ sensations stop I don't lose (or feel I have lost) any part of who I am. The I that knows or is aware of my sensations doesn't vanish with it. Therefore, my core essence of who or what I am cannot be the sum of my senses/ sensations.

I go for a walk, then I come home. When I finish walking I don't feel I have lost who I am, the I that knows or is aware of my experience of walking doesn't vanish after my experience of walking ends. So I must not be the sum of my experiences.

When I have a thought and it disappears then I don't feel I have lost who I am. The I know that knows or is aware of my thoughts doesn't vanish with the thought. Therefore I am not my thoughts.

If I am aware of my senses and thoughts than I cannot be only my senses or thoughts. My sensations and thoughts start and stop but my awareness of my senses and thoughts is continuous. Accordingly, this must mean I am that which is the continuous aware space in which my experiences, thoughts and sensations arise.

Only being aware is the only constant experience in my life and cannot be removed from me. Being aware just remains stable and constant in the background of my life. Accordingly, at my core, I am the presence of being aware, and I can know myself simply by being.

Therefore, my core essence of who or what I am cannot be the sum of my senses/ sensations.

So I must not be the sum of my experiences.


Therefore I am not my thoughts.


this must mean I am that which is the continuous aware space in which my experiences, thoughts and sensations arise.

You notice something that is correct, and yet these are conclusion like "cogito, ergo sum" - and if you stop here that's where you'll end, with only an intellectual conclusion and a wrong one at that, it is easy to turn ideas like that into a belief. There is no argument that you are not the thoughts and not the sum of sensations or experiences, but why do you assume there is a I who is personal? Is that "I" have volition? Is this "I" the observer? Is there an observer?

Only being aware is the only constant experience in my life and cannot be removed from me. Being aware just remains stable and constant in the background of my life. Accordingly, at my core, I am the presence of being aware, and I can know myself simply by being.

Right, but is there an I? You talk about that self as if it was you the person somehow. The topic of "no self" is just another view of "only the self", with some traditions pointing there or there, but it's essentially the same thing. I prefer the teaching of "no self" only because it's so easy for the ego identity to cling to anything as long as it keeps living as an entity. So you switch "no self" to "awareness", mission accomplished, a euphoric moment, zero shift.

I'm spending time explaining and giving you exercises for a reason, but you're not following the requests and not answering my questions. I can't help you if you keep going to conclusions, concepts and ideas while skipping the pointers. There are many spiritual people who exchange one delusion with another, you can stop here and join that club.

If you'd like to continue, focus on the pointers, drop the concepts and answer the questions with complete honesty and from looking, not thinking.

Best always,
Ron

Thanks Ron,

I am sorry that I am annoying you. I am getting annoyed and disappointed in myself actually.

I am honestly trying and I understand that this can be a difficult process, so I ask that you please be patient and very soft with me as I am honestly trying to open up and be vulnerable to you so that I can move forward with this process.

From your responses, although your frustrated, it does seem that I am making some progress.

From my direct observation (not thoughts) I have observed that 'I' am not the individual or sum total of either/ and my experiences, thoughts, sensations. I believe this is a significant step forward. This is because 'I' can directly observe these things come and go, but the sense of 'i' is still there. If 'I' can observe something than I can't be limited to that thing alone.

Then when I directly observe (not think) of this empty space in which these thoughts and sensations arise, I observe that this space is empty and that this is the only constant experience 'I' have which is not effected by my thoughts or sensations.

You are right, I am not saying 'I' own this space or 'I' am this space in terms of ownership or possession or limitation or ego, rather I directly observe 'myself' to simply 'be' this space. This sense of beingness is not limited to 'my body', it just is. 'I' don't have control or power over it but rather things seem to just appear in it/ or this space appears as such as thoughts and sensations.

When I use the word 'I' to describe it, I don't mean that it is me or that my ego can somehow be it, but rather it just is and 'my' life story, memories, thoughts, sensations are empty appearances in this space.

It feels like when I strip away what 'I' am, I observe 'myself' to be, at 'my' core, this empty space in which things appear. When I say this I am not saying that 'I' am this empty space, rather this space just seems to be without a 'me', and there is no separate 'I'.

I may be completely wrong, or misinterpreted this experience, but this direct observation to me is an extremely powerful indicator that the 'I' of my thought contents is empty and not real, and that there is no actual 'I' at the core but just life happening.

Hopefully, this better explains my experience.

In terms of the experiments you have given me, can you please list which one's you want me to do again? Thanks.

For the ice cube: I thought about the ice cube being cool coming down my back. Then I held the ice cube and this sensation was different from my thoughts. I don't know how but I could tell the difference between the real sensation of holding the ice cube and thinking about holding the ice cube. Then I put the ice cube down my back and it was cold, sweet, slippery and kind of slimy and uncomfortable. Again this was different to my thought of how it would feel but I don't know how to describe the difference between the thought content vs the sensation (maybe it is that the sensation made me feel really alive, connected to this world, but the thought was kind of transitory, come and go, passive and illusory).

I look forward to your feedback. Thanks.

Hi SeekerJ.
This is good, thanks for the clarification - indeed all you can ever say is what you are not, never what you are, because you are not a something, you are not a separate thing, the "I" is just a concept, an idea.

If I seem frustrated or annoyed, I assure you it's only your interpretation, I may use harsh terms but it's directed at getting you to focus at what matters, it's what needs to be said.

I liked hearing about the ice cube - "made me feel really alive, connected to this world, but the thought was kind of transitory" - excellent. This is exactly the difference between "living" in the mind and living in the moment.

We still have a lot to cover, I'd like to see how you see things in their simplicity, and if you get it, we move on.
So here we go, please answer the following, do it again, don't go to memory, try it, be sure you see it clearly:


Can you predict your next thought?
How do you make a thought appear (or, how do you give birth to a thought)?
where are the thoughts coming from, and where are they going to?
Could you have only pleasant thoughts for say a 20 minutes? All of them must be pleasant.
Can you stop having thoughts (in normal day to day life)?
Is there any control over thought that is not just a thought?


And attention:
What controls attention? Sit and observe attention shifting from sights to sounds, sensations, smells, tastes, how does it work? If this is controlled, give an example, if not, give an example 😉

Can you predict your next thought? no
How do you make a thought appear (or, how do you give birth to a thought)? by another thought
where are the thoughts coming from, and where are they going to? i dont know
Could you have only pleasant thoughts for say a 20 minutes? All of them must be pleasant. no
Can you stop having thoughts (in normal day to day life)? no, well you could disassociate but i guess that's not a normal example and it would be thoughts initiating this process.
Is there any control over thought that is not just a thought? no


And attention:
What controls attention? Sit and observe attention shifting from sights to sounds, sensations, smells, tastes, how does it work? If this is controlled, give an example, if not, give an example 😉 attention is directed by thoughts. i dont control thoughts, I cant control thoughts because I am also empty, thoughts just happen, life just happens

Hi,
It's really hard to read your replies, so I'd like to ask you to use the quote function around my questions when answering,
You simply paste my question, select the text, and click the “Quote" button above the text edit field
For a demo see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ

How do you make a thought appear (or, how do you give birth to a thought)?

by another thought

Is that so. And how did you create the first one? The one that created the second thought?

You say there is no control, but your replies suggest otherwise, you're simply not looking at the process. For example you say you can disassociate, but you don't notice that the decision to dissociate isn't something YOU do at all, how can you? You can create thoughts? Based on what?
Can you direct attention, or is attention just moving and thoughts saying "I did that"?

attention is directed by thoughts. i dont control thoughts, I cant control thoughts because I am also empty, thoughts just happen, life just happens

Here is again an explanation, not an observation - because.... Sorry to be blunt but you need to stop quoting ideas and start looking at experience, notice the thoughts but don't just buy into the explanations.

Thoughts is the most fundamental thing to see clearly, you're assuming that you control thoughts and that thoughts somehow create action.

Let's do the choosing game again, because you never answered the questions there.


Please follow each step and do it, slowly, and very carefully.

Pick an animal you'd love to see the next time you take a walk.
Got one?


I don't like that one, pick another please.
Got it?


Let's dissect each step and examine it:
1. a thought came out of the blue and said "giraffe" (or whatever).
Did you choose this? Or was it just what came?


2. I asked you to change your selection, so there might have been what seemed like a selection process.
Say an elephant a peacock and a zebra came up, but for some reason a raccoon didn't.
was that limited group of animals selected by you?
did you decide not to include a raccoon?

3. a new choice was made, say peacock, and now another thought offers an explanation "they are so beautiful"

Did you observe free choice made?
Did you observe an actual thinking process?
Did you do anything at all for these thoughts to appear?


Please answer each question.

Hi Ok,

Is that so. And how did you create the first one? The one that created the second thought?

I don't know. I observe my thoughts coming out of nowhere and going to nowhere.
I observe my thoughts being directed by my attention. My attention is on writing this, and my thoughts are appearing in relation to this response. But I don't know who directs my attention, it seems to be another thought directing my attention

something YOU do at all, how can you? You can create thoughts? Based on what?

External stimulus (or internal stimulus, but I will ignore this example) will trigger the fight/ flight / freeze response. This is an automatic CNS response which is not based on thought process. When this is triggered you may run away, tense muscles, disassociate etc. There is no thought saying I am have been triggered until after you have been. This part of the brain is ancient and was developed before language. But this does not mean 'you' control it. It just happens before and regardless of thoughts.

Can you direct attention, or is attention just moving and thoughts saying "I did that"?

it feels like I can direct attention but it is really a thought that directs attention and 'I' on't have any control about my thoughts.

Pick an animal you'd love to see the next time you take a walk.
Got one?


I don't like that one, pick another please.
Got it?


Let's dissect each step and examine it:
1. a thought came out of the blue and said "giraffe" (or whatever).
Did you choose this? Or was it just what came?


2. I asked you to change your selection, so there might have been what seemed like a selection process.
Say an elephant a peacock and a zebra came up, but for some reason a raccoon didn't.
was that limited group of animals selected by you?
did you decide not to include a raccoon?

3. a new choice was made, say peacock, and now another thought offers an explanation "they are so beautiful"

Did you observe free choice made?
Did you observe an actual thinking process?
Did you do anything at all for these thoughts to appear?

- dog
-cat
1. it just came
2. i dont know. the cat just came up. thats all the happened.
3. - i didnt oberseve the free choice. Cat just came up from no where followed by nothing (but for dog, it reminded of seeing a cute dog today, the thought about the dog came with or after thinking dog)
- i didnt observe a thinking process. the thought appeared from no where
- no, i didnt do anything. I focused my attention to be able to think clearly, but this focusing of my attention may have been a thought like ' ok i will focus and think of an animal'
it happens lightning fast - thoughts and thinking process

Hi Ron,

I have done some further observations and I have noticed that 'I' just am. I am not sure what that means, but all the thoughts and attention, I don't know where it comes from, but the core sense of 'me' is a sense of 'I am'. This 'I am' is not my personal self, it just is a 'presence'. The rest such as thoughts, experiences, attention and anything else I don't know where they come from or where they go or who directs them.

When someone says unicorn's are real, I don't bother searching for them because I am not going to search the world to try disprove this claim. Even if I searched the world, the person could just say some excuse of why I didn't find them. I just rely on biology and science to state that is not true. This is using my mind.

When someone says my personal sense of self is not 'real', I turn my attention inwards to look for myself (yes, I know I don't who or what it is that actually turns my attention inwards). When I directly look for myself I cannot find myself (or it disappears), either way it is not there, and there is no personal sense of self. This is from direct observation, but who or what is directing my observation, I don't know.

Hi SeekerJ

Regarding your first reply, a few points to look at:

But I don't know who directs my attention, it seems to be another thought directing my attention

Attention moves, thoughts appear - there is no you who thinks or does anything, this "I" is a thought and it appears. That's all that is ever known, anything beyond this is a story (thoughts explanation).

To see the illusion you cannot rely on thoughts, give it a try, just observe without turning it into a story at all (once you really see it, you can tall stories). What is known? That thoughts appear, that attention goes from thoughts to sights, sounds etc. Thoughts come up with explanations why and who controls it, but if you actually LOOK, is there a controller to be found? Do thoughts direct anything, or rather thought are a narrative to what's happening already? These are questions you need to look at.

Take a look at this clip by Spira
https://youtu.be/V560v1eQJzA?t=60


Fight/ flight / freeze and CNS are not interesting expiations here, they are just sophisticated mind stories, explanations that don't explain anything if you go deeper and question. These concepts can never be seen in direct experience and are all appearing in thoughts, a dead end my dear, stop going there for answers, I will just ignore this going forward, I've stated this many times and you keep at it. Look at direct experience, I don't care about the explanations, I want observations.

It feels like I can direct attention but it is really a thought that directs attention and 'I' don't have any control about my thoughts.

There is no control over thoughts, that is correct, but be sure to experience it and not to adopt a belief. Sit, look again, isn't what we call attention shifting all by itself? Is thought causing the action, or is thought claiming the action? It can be tricky to see clearly.

I have done some further observations and I have noticed that 'I' just am. I am not sure what that means, but all the thoughts and attention, I don't know where it comes from, but the core sense of 'me' is a sense of 'I am'. This 'I am' is not my personal self, it just is a 'presence'. The rest such as thoughts, experiences, attention and anything else I don't know where they come from or where they go or who directs them.

OK, we'll go more into what you call presence and investigate, but first let's make sure you see this doer-ship and thinking for what they are.

Is there anything that needs your doing? Or everything is just happening?

What do you do in order to be?

What do you do in order to see or hear?
What do you do in order to feel? Taste or smell?


What do you do for thoughts to be?

What do you do in order for the body to be?

Please investigate each questions thoroughly many times throughout the day.
I'd like to get answers to each showing an investigation, you need to really look at each item with lots of curiosity, get it touch with it.

but if you actually LOOK, is there a controller to be found? Do thoughts direct anything, or rather thought are a narrative to what's happening already? These are questions you need to look at.

I agree. I looked. I did not see any controller when I looked. When I don't directly look then I seem to 'trick' myself into believing there is a controller behind the thought and attention, like a little operator sitting in my head operating my mind with buttons. But when I look, there is no operator. Just flow, just things happening, happening to whom? I don't know.

These concepts can never be seen in direct experience and are all appearing in thoughts, a dead end my dear,

Okay, I agree, it seems very complicated. Some stimulus activates our CNS response before our conscious mind is even aware. Who know's who/ what is operating this instinctive reaction. I have observed the 'little operator' in my mind certainly doesn't have any conscious control over these instinctive reactions. And thoughts follow these instinctive reactions, ie jumping out of the way before a car hits me. First is instinctive reaction, then thought. But I don't know who/ what operates the instinctive reaction. Like things happen, then thoughts follow.

Sit, look again, isn't what we call attention shifting all by itself? Is thought causing the action, or is thought claiming the action? It can be tricky to see clearly.

Yes, attention is shifting all by itself, then thoughts follow. From what I observed often my attention shifts first then thoughts follow. However I also have a thought about the harbor bridge and then my attention shifts to thinking about the harbour bridge. Maybe I need help distinguishing between a group of thoughts and attention itself.

Is there anything that needs your doing? Or everything is just happening?

There is no 'my doing', just doing. When observed closely everything just seems to be happening without a 'little'' controller in my mind directing my thoughts and attention.

What do you do in order to be?

I don't know. I guess 'i' dont be, but 'being' just is. Being always is but by quietening the mind we can become being. Who becomes being? Being 'be's' itself I guess from my observation.

What do you do in order to see or hear?

'I' do nothing. I just see and hear. I can focus on seeing, but it is just focusing, no little me telling my eyes to focus.

What do you do in order to feel? Taste or smell?

Same as above, I seem to do nothing, it just happens.

What do you do for thoughts to be?

I do nothing. They just happen

What do you do in order for the body to be?

Nothing, the body just is.


All of this seems to get more confusing to me probably because we are going deeper.
If my attention and focus just shift by themself and thoughts follow, then there is no need for a little controller in my mind.
So why does it feel like there is such controller - why is it needed.
I worry about things - but then this is just thoughts - and my sense of self is a story and memory which is a thought and the contents of thoughts are not real as I have observed - - -- ....... so who am I? no one I guess? do I exist - as a body and senses, yes; but as a little controller with a subjective expereince that everything is happening to me with my ego - my observations suggest not. Then what am I without a personal sense of self? Just the flow of life apparently as I have observed.

Can I direct that flow? if its a personal sense of me that the i is referred to than no, thought contents cannot control things but it can cause emotions by emotions reacting to the thought content, but that is not a sense of self, it just a natural reaction to stimulus. If my personal sense of self cant direct that flow, then I have observed there is only flow.... it all seems quite confusing right now.

Hi SeekerJ

Good looking :)

All of this seems to get more confusing to me probably because we are going deeper.
If my attention and focus just shift by themself and thoughts follow, then there is no need for a little controller in my mind.

I'd much rather you be confused than having absolute convictions about wrong ideas. Yes, confusion will come and go many times during this path, and what/who is confused? Aren't these just thought appearing "I'm confused", is there anyone really confused?

So why does it feel like there is such controller - why is it needed.
I worry about things - but then this is just thoughts - and my sense of self is a story and memory which is a thought and the contents of thoughts are not real as I have observed

Exactly, this question is irrelevant, who/what needs to know why? What/who needs to figure it out? Thoughts appearing and there is a belief that a person is here observing the thoughts.

- - -- ....... so who am I? no one I guess?

There is no separate you other than in thoughts, the thoughts appear, tell a story.
Let's move on, keep being open and curious and keep looking, allow the confusion to just be there and don't be dragged into thoughts and expiations, when it will be revealed it will be clear.


Please read this very carefully:
One of your deepest point of confusion is the assumption that something/someone must be experiencing the sensations, the thoughts, the sights. This is also known as "the observer". The observer is a very useful construct when people start awakening - you're not your thoughts, you are the one observing the thoughts, right? Well that is only stepping stone crossing the river, it's not ultimately true. Are you the observer? Is there an observer?

Let me repeat, initially there was a believe that you are the thinker of thoughts, a "me" who knows thoughts and objects like sights, sounds, smells.... But is there one to be found?
Is there an observer separated from what is just happening?

Here is an excerpt of the Bahiya Sutta, where the Buddha is teaching Bahiya:

In the seen, there is only the seen,
in the heard, there is only the heard,
in the sensed, there is only the sensed,
in the cognized, there is only the cognized.
Thus you should see that indeed there is no thing here;
this, Bahiya, is how you should train yourself

Is there any separation between the seen and the knowing of it (not what it's called, not what story comes up)? - the raw, simple, pristine experience of the seen?

Find a constant sounds, like the fridge.
Is there any separation between a sound and the experience (or the knowing) of the sound?
Notice that the tags that come up "this is a fridge" "it's in the kitchen", "it's white" - whatever, are these actual experience or a thought?

Is there anything to be found except for experience?
And what knows experience? Please don't say that you do.

What do you find?
Regards
Ron