The Gate

good evening Vortex, Good stuff. Let's look at a couple more.
What is your take on 'responsibility'?
Morality? Choice? Intention? Control?

with love

vince

Greetings Vince

responsibility'?

Quite a useful story and especially in working environment but however it requires a self to carry duty so isn't any real.

Morality?

Useful story again and especially in social environment but requires logical distinctions between true/false, right/wrong, good/bad that are quite fictional so it remains a story that can only be experienced as "train of thoughts".

Choice?

Self related story that comes to justify action that has happened. Without self remains a story.

Intention?

Self related story about how some causes will bring some effects. Without self remains a story too.

Control?

Self related story about cause/effect or influence that has happened. Without self remains a story again.

Good morning Vortex. Great. More good stuff. i am seeing more clearly now that you have a handle on this. let's keep going..
Even though i believe that you 'know' the actuality of this stuff, i still need you to spell it out.
These are a standard set of questions that are designed to show any areas that might need more investigation.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Share in your own words what the illusion of separate self is and how it shows up in experience. Also, through your inquiry, what is different now?

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

6) Anything to add?

BRB

ok

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

No other than a story with no base in reality.

2) Share in your own words what the illusion of separate self is and how it shows up in experience. Also, through your inquiry, what is different now?

Just a fictional idea that is believed to be true and brings whole bunch of other beliefs with itself.

Now the search is over. All should-s, must-s, why-me-s etc. are gone and experience is freeflowing and uninterrupted. Shall any interruption be experienced it is experienced as natural part of experience not better or worst than anything else and therefor left to pass as quickly as it has manifested

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

It feels pleasant and liberating. Nothing dramatic which is actually quite dramatic. Drama quickly vanishes to make space for suffering but now drama and suffering are experienced as the same kind of storytelling and this makes boundless space for whatever storytelling may happen.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

There were bits rather than single bit. Everytime I read how people were being asked to actually look at their experience instead of stretch stories about their belief systems I did the same and there was an "aha" moment.

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.

Decision, intention, free will, choice and control are illusions related to anf based on the illusion of self.

There are really no "things". We just give names to what appears stable and separate to us and then create further stories about it but all that is an illusion. All the "things" are just different shades of life which happens naturally and is constantly changing. Everything is in contact with everything else therefore is influenced and influencing everything else and that's how "things" happen.

My favourite coffee cup seems to be one and the same everyday but, when I poor hoot coffee in, it it's temperature increases and that is clear sign that even it that is not alive changes in some simple way.

The winter is almost over and I don't need new winter shoes but friend of mine brought me to a discount store and there I saw an amazing last pair of boots with 90% of discount so I bought them. It happened because first I got in contact with my friend, then I got in visual contact with the boots and their price and my brain almost immediately made the decision because based on previous recorded experience brain has the story that another winter will come, I have no boots, the brand is high quality and 90% discount is a very good deal. No need for self in all that. It's all waves that follow each other on the surface of the mysterious ocen we call life, reality, universe etc.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

I feel like quoting myself here:

If there is no "self" there is no one to be held responsible or accountable but likes attract likes and the other way around so we suffer and get rewarded as result of our actions.

This was seen as problematic earlier so let me further elaborate. By "likes attract likes" I mean that cause and effect is easy to experience and cause of a like (of a kind) brings effect of a like. The cause of hot coffee in my cup brings the effect of hot cup. The cause of shouting out brings the effect of being shouted at. The causing of unpleasant sensations brings the effect of unpleasant sensations experienced or suffered. I noticed in the mean time that the word suffering is not appreciated here so let me make it clear that by suffering I mean a sensation of the kind that is naturally avoided (unpleasant) plus self related stories attached to it.

To put it straight - responsibility is another useful story of how life influences life in a harmonious rather than chaotic way.

6) Anything to add?

To put things together - there is experience, there is speculation about it and that's the least incorrect way that I can come up with describing reality.

In case all the above is fine I am open to explore the possibility of becoming a guide so other new members won't need to wait for one as long as I did.

Good day Vortex, Well, pretty good, but i do think that we need to examine cause/effect in a bit more depth.

I mean that cause and effect is easy to experience

Is it? You experience something that you label "cause" and after that, you experience something that you label "effect". What links these two together? What decides their relationship?

with love

vince

Is it? You experience something that you label "cause" and after that, you experience something that you label "effect".

Yes it is although I guess you might prefer to call it influence. Of course I do not mean that the influencing of every influenced is easy to experience and I don't mean that there is self as influencing factor. Quite the contrary actually.

What links these two together?

The fact that they are "alike" and that is why I expressed it as "likes attract likes".

What decides their relationship?

The relationship is not decided but experienced and what is experienced is labeled "relationship" because of the aforementioned alikeness.

There is no decision in the fact that my coffee cup gets hot when there is hot tea in it. If the cup had some magical self to decide it's destiny then by the magical forces of that self the cup mighty have gotten cold despite the hot coffee or it might have gotten hot before the coffee was placed in it but experience confirms it that is never the case. In fact that is the second part of the no-self game. Not only that there is no self as influencing factor to be experienced but the influencing factor of pretty much everything can be experienced and so we know for sure there is no self.

Good evening Vortex. Whoa! your response to my last post was as if the 'old' Vortex had returned.
Your post was confusing and hard to follow.

What links these two together?

i don't want a theoretical answer. What is it that you experience that makes a connection between a happening labelled cause and a happening labelled effect?

vince

OK, Vince let's keep things simple and get rid of the "old" Vortex. Cause end effect are just stories that cannot be verified in experience. They require this and that to be true but there is just this and there are stories about that. So simple and profound, no? 🙂

Welcome back.

Cause end effect are just stories that cannot be verified in experience.

True. ..but this still doesn't answer my question. The answer i was looking for is 'thoughts'. It's a story that defines the relationship between cause and effect. Which is why that which you say is true. (it can't be verified in experience)
i take it that you agree with this?
Your story about the boots implies cause and effect, but if you look at it, each of those conditions that seemed to culminate in the purchase were enabling circumstances, but there were an almost infinite number of others that were not recognized as well. ..and of course, each of those circumstances required certain conditions for them to be possible. As you say; "It's all waves that follow each other on the surface of the mysterious ocen we call life, reality, universe etc."

Ok, from the perspective of the organism, can you tell me what responsibility is?

with love

vince

Responsibility is just a thought.

Good morning Vortex, it seems to me that you are pretty clear and have seen through many illusions. Is this correct? and can you say that you grok it?
Can you think of any area that we need to investigate further?

Now i think that this is a bit tedious, but please go through these questions again, without philosophizing. Each answer from an experiential perspective please.
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Share in your own words what the illusion of a separate self is and how it shows up in experience. Also, through your inquiry, what is different now?

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice, and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences of how things happen and how things work.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

6) Anything to add?

seems to me that you are pretty clear and have seen through many illusions. Is this correct?

Absolutely.

and can you say that you grok it?

Absolutely.

Can you think of any area that we need to investigate further?

Not really.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?

No.

Was there ever?

No.

2) Share in your own words what the illusion of a separate self is and how it shows up in experience. Also, through your inquiry, what is different now?

Separate self is an idea mistaken for reality because of various forms of social conditioning and as such in becomes an obstruction to experiencing reality as it is. Now there is no obstruction so the national flow of reality is experienced fully as just this and now.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

It feels like a pure bliss. Before there was still some fog and now the fog is gone so the view can be fully enjoyed.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

Going through the last bits of others.

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice, and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences of how things happen and how things work.

All the aforementioned are ideas related and connected to the idea of self therefore fictional and not in the field of experiential reality.

Things just happen and that's all we can say about it - all else is fictional account that can only be useful or useless.

Thoughts come and go out of nowhere, wind blows and suddenly quiets, emotions arise and pass away with no apparent reason. I suddenly feel like I want to watch a movie, friend suddenly calls me asking how I'm doing, clouds suddenly cover the sun, things just happen and we make stories about why but the reality remains a mystery.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

No "you", no "responsible". Another idea connected to the idea of self that is accepted for reality, acted upon and thus distorting reality as it is. It works as a story mutually accepted and applied whenever found useful. Story is accepted as useful that driving is only done when sober and acted accordingly. Suddenly story is accepted as useful that small amount of alcohol hasn't distorted perception in the present moment, that it's nightime and small streets are empty, that distance is short, that speed can be maintained to minimum so story of driving in such circumstances is accepted as useful and acted upon.

6) Anything to add?

Open for whatever comes next.

Open for whatever comes next.

Excellent. i like your response to those questions.
Wait a day or so to see what other guides come up with.
Are you aware of any areas that you would like to explore further?

with love

vince