the gibberish blabber - in need of help

[gibberishbla]

HELLO VIVIEN!

Before i dive deep into this today, i just wanted to ask the meaning of AE? Sorry - i just need to ask so i will freely flow through the diving deep and seeing. Thanks!

[Vivien]

Actual experience :)

[gibberishbla]

Thanks a lot! Will dive deeper into the questions today and send you a response one to two days from now or depending on the experiment or seeing i do. I feel like things are getting clearer and more seen. Your guide questions have been helping me so much. Thank you!

[Vivien]

That's great! You are welcome :)

[gibberishbla]

Hi Vivien!

This is the result of my seeing and actual experience...

Close your eyes, and scan through the body. Look for every sensation that is present right now. You will find, that as you scan the body, a visual thought ‘shows’ the location of attention, so to speak.

If you look very carefully, you’ll find that there are some parts where the sensations are really strong, but there are other areas where there is hardly any sensation going on, or even nothing. So even the sensations what are labelled as ‘body’ cannot be experienced as a whole. I mean you cannot feel all ‘parts’ of the body at the same time. There is only a constructed visual thought and with the label ‘body’, and the belief that the body is a whole unit, always present, always available. But this cannot be further from the truth.

Body as such exists only as a construct.
Can you see this?

Oh my goodness! This experiment / investigation about the body made me see this clearer! truly the body is just a visualized concept as a whole but when further seen or looked at through this experiement, it isn't. i can feel my feet but not my stomach. Or upon closing my eyes i noticed that thoughts appear to ''scan'' (for lack of a better word) the body parts BUT IT CANNOT SCAN THE ENTIRE WHOLE - it misses some parts and it is focused on one after another - just like the fruit basket metaphor i used last time.

Color and shape is NOT the AE of body, but the AE of color only.
The visual thought labelled ‘body’ is NOT the AE of body, but the AE of a thought only.
Sensations are NOT the AE of body, but the AE of sensations only.
The appearance of movement is NOT the AE of body, but the AE of colors and sensations only.
There is ZERO experience of body.
Body as such cannot be experienced.
Body is just a mental construct ( = thought), nothing else.

The body is just a conceptual overlay on the experience of colors and sensations. Can you see this?

THIS ONE I CAN DEFINITELY SEE! It is so clear that body is merely a thought with no meaning. If i can compare it it's like the clouds. The clouds are just ''there'' as color and the cloud ''up there'' can never be seen as a whole even if you zoom out far back - it is all just a conceptual idea - but in direct, actual experience - color and sensation are all there is apart from thought and ideas around it. This i can see clearly now.

So, is there even a body (other than a concept) that could house a self, an I inside?

There IS NO BODY that could house a ''self'' - the ''self'' is a belief / thought that appeared and grasped and believed - but belief is just a thought and the body is a label given to a visual idea about something that produced more thought - like ''the body is walking'' or ''the body has intestines and parts'' but upon seeing deeper - that is not true at all. They are merely ideas about a sensation happening.

Lee

[Vivien]

Hi Lee,

You did an excellent investigation :)

Now, let’s start to look at the notion of control.
1. Place both hands on a table in front of you, palms down.
2. When you have done that, rest for a moment and then raise one hand in the air but not the other.

Don't go to thoughts, examine your direct experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:

What is it exactly that is choosing which hand to raise?
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is doing the choosing?

What is it that is controlling the hand?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
Is there a controller at all?

Can anything be found that makes the hand move?
Is there a mover at all?

How is the decision made?
Is there a decision maker?


Vivien

[gibberishbla]

GOOD DAY VIVIEN,

After the body experiement and investigation, it was kind of hard doing this seeing with the hand because the ''intelllect'' is going ahead of me like saying: ''there is no doer'' no one is doing the lifting of the hand - but i need to see this and experiment further as a direct experience rather than just a mere belief or thought.

This is how it went:

THE EXPERIEMENT
1. Place both hands on a table in front of you, palms down.
2. When you have done that, rest for a moment and then raise one hand in the air but not the other.
Don't go to thoughts, examine your direct experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:

What is it exactly that is choosing which hand to raise?

Thoughts are running behind the scenes or in the background while doing this. I still have to do it over and over. sometimes it is a spontaneous raising without a raiser raising but there would be times that the belief in someone raising or deciding which hand to raise is getting in the way

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is doing the choosing?

Definitely there isn't. The hand was just raising by itself. There are just thoughts in the background happening while the raising is being done - that is the struggle this time.

What is it that is controlling the hand?

Life is controlling the hand - or controlling just happens - perhaps i really do not know what is it that controls the hand. it is a thought question - i pretty much experience that during the thought EXPERIMENT, my thoughts are not mine, it just appears and now i think thoughts are playing trick on reinforcing the belief that there is a hand raiser

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

This i am sure that no controller can ever be located, even if the doctors do an autopsy of my body organs, no controller is present there.

Is there a controller at all?

Not at all. Not even LIFE. And it is just is happening without any effort.

Can anything be found that makes the hand move?

When you asked this question, it felt really sure that THERE IS NOTHING OR NO ONE TO BE FOUND THAT CAN MAKE THE HAND MOVE AT ALL. It is like an invisible, unknown assurance that there isn't any mover or doer to make the hand move.

Is there a mover at all?

No, there isn't any mover at all

How is the decision made?

Thoughts appear as if it is making the decision - i got stuck with this at the beginning of the experience. But perhaps i need to repeat the investigation over and over.

Is there a decision maker?

There is no decision maker - but decisions happen on their own without a decision maker to make the decisions. Thoughts appear, hand raises and lowers, and they all are not dependent on each other. It is just a movement without a mover.

[Vivien]

Hi Lee,

Life is controlling the hand - or controlling just happens - perhaps i really do not know what is it that controls the hand. it is a thought question - i pretty much experience that during the thought EXPERIMENT, my thoughts are not mine, it just appears and now i think thoughts are playing trick on reinforcing the belief that there is a hand raiser

When a thought comes “let’s raise my left hand” – is thought is raising the hand?

Yes, there could be all sorts of thoughts in the background. But is any of them doing it, raising the hand?

Thoughts appear as if it is making the decision - i got stuck with this at the beginning of the experience. But perhaps i need to repeat the investigation over and over.

OK… so thoughts make all sorts of statements and comment: “I’m going to raise my left hand”, “I did that”….

But is a thought actually doing it, or thoughts only ever comment ON what is happening on its own?

Aren’t thoughts just narrations, like subtitles for a movie?

Vivien

[gibberishbla]

Hi Vivien,

I feel like i need some helpd / guidance with something that came up yesterday after the seeing and investigation.... But first, let me answer the questions...

When a thought comes “let’s raise my left hand” – is thought is raising the hand?

Now, i am definitely sure that the thought is not responsible for raising the left hand

Yes, there could be all sorts of thoughts in the background. But is any of them doing it, raising the hand?

No, the thoughts are merely background or behind the scene appearances but totally not responsible for thought

OK… so thoughts make all sorts of statements and comment: “I’m going to raise my left hand”, “I did that”….

yes! thoughts would love to do that and it is doing a good job sometimes

But is a thought actually doing it, or thoughts only ever comment ON what is happening on its own?

Yeah, thoughts are simply just a commentor on the actions - but totally not the one responsible for its occurrence or happenings

Aren’t thoughts just narrations, like subtitles for a movie?

Yes, this is the best term to describe it - just a movie subtitle definitely

This thought bothered me yesterday during the seeing. I am so sure now that there is no doer, and no middle man or someone controlling life. But for some reason a thought came about COVID, death, killing, murder, homicide, bullying, etc. I suddenly had questions like, is life really that cruel. If life is simply happening, why is life showing a motion picture of painful stuff like someone being killed, death from chronic illness, someone being abused, etc. Why is life unfair? I do recognize that these questions are appearing as it is and i maybe need some perspective to release this kind of blockage in the way. I hope you can help me with this as well. Thank you so much Vivien!

-Leonard

[gibberishbla]

Hi Vivien,

I feel like i need some helpd / guidance with something that came up yesterday after the seeing and investigation.... But first, let me answer the questions...

When a thought comes “let’s raise my left hand” – is thought is raising the hand?

Now, i am definitely sure that the thought is not responsible for raising the left hand

Yes, there could be all sorts of thoughts in the background. But is any of them doing it, raising the hand?

No, the thoughts are merely background or behind the scene appearances but totally not responsible for thought

OK… so thoughts make all sorts of statements and comment: “I’m going to raise my left hand”, “I did that”….

yes! thoughts would love to do that and it is doing a good job sometimes

But is a thought actually doing it, or thoughts only ever comment ON what is happening on its own?

Yeah, thoughts are simply just a commentor on the actions - but totally not the one responsible for its occurrence or happenings

Aren’t thoughts just narrations, like subtitles for a movie?

Yes, this is the best term to describe it - just a movie subtitle definitely

This thought bothered me yesterday during the seeing. I am so sure now that there is no doer, and no middle man or someone controlling life. But for some reason a thought came about COVID, death, killing, murder, homicide, bullying, etc. I suddenly had questions like, is life really that cruel. If life is simply happening, why is life showing a motion picture of painful stuff like someone being killed, death from chronic illness, someone being abused, etc. Why is life unfair? I do recognize that these questions are appearing as it is and i maybe need some perspective to release this kind of blockage in the way. I hope you can help me with this as well. Thank you so much Vivien!

-Leonard
Leonard is my other name apart from LEE :-)

[Vivien]

Hi Lee,

But for some reason a thought came about COVID, death, killing, murder, homicide, bullying, etc. I suddenly had questions like, is life really that cruel. If life is simply happening, why is life showing a motion picture of painful stuff like someone being killed, death from chronic illness, someone being abused, etc. Why is life unfair? I do recognize that these questions are appearing as it is and i maybe need some perspective to release this kind of blockage in the way. I hope you can help me with this as well. Thank you so much Vivien!

Life is not cruel, life is totally peaceful. When someone kills another person they do it because they believe their thoughts. Stressful thoughts appear and they have no way of questioning them, they are believing them at face value. So action follows that story. But there is no cruelty in that… the only thing one could ever be guilty of is to believe their thoughts. We all guilty of that, so none of us is actually guilty.

Life is neutral, it doesn’t come with a tag of ‘cruel’, or ‘unfair’. Do you think that a zebra thinks that how unfair it is that a lion just chanced him to kill him and eat him? As soon as it’s over and the zebra has survived, he goes back to normal. In about 10 minutes all the stress is out of his system, and just continues grazing peacefully. He won’t think obsessively about it on the next day, the next week, the next year, or even 10 years later, telling stories to his children and grandchildren how close he was to death by a cruel lion. Even if he got injured, he won’t tell stories how unfair life is, since then he cannot walk properly and has pain in his leg. Only humans do that.

So, look closely, who is saying that life is cruel? Who is making the statement that life is unfair?

Vivien

[gibberishbla]

Hello Vivien!

I had a sort of massive epihphany with the realization i had and the actual seeing. In summary, what came about was: THOUGHTS APPEAR AND DISAPPEAR ON THEIR OWN, THE BODY DOES ITS OWN THING WITHOUT ANYONE CONTROLLING IT AND after I stepped back and observed that, I was able to experience the neutrality you were talking about . . .

Life is not cruel, life is totally peaceful. When someone kills another person they do it because they believe their thoughts. Stressful thoughts appear and they have no way of questioning them, they are believing them at face value. So action follows that story. But there is no cruelty in that… the only thing one could ever be guilty of is to believe their thoughts. We all guilty of that, so none of us is actually guilty.

Life is neutral, it doesn’t come with a tag of ‘cruel’, or ‘unfair’.

Do you think that a zebra thinks that how unfair it is that a lion just chanced him to kill him and eat him?

This is exactly making sense now. I see that the ''happenings'' of life are all just life happening. They all happen on their own and the neutral sense of it is that it all are happening to no one - it is such a neutral unitary motion on its own. Even the killings and the seemingly chaos - like volcano erupting and storms hitting the city. wow.

As soon as it’s over and the zebra has survived, he goes back to normal. In about 10 minutes all the stress is out of his system, and just continues grazing peacefully. He won’t think obsessively about it on the next day, the next week, the next year, or even 10 years later, telling stories to his children and grandchildren how close he was to death by a cruel lion. Even if he got injured, he won’t tell stories how unfair life is, since then he cannot walk properly and has pain in his leg. Only humans do that.

So, look closely, who is saying that life is cruel?

No one is saying life is cruel - thoughts appear as '''questions'' asking but for all its worth - this question is just a thought arising

Who is making the statement that life is unfair?

I have been untethered after this experiement - i feel like there is nothing to worry about anymore. Life is peacefully neutral... I EVEN TRIED CLOSING MY EYES TRYING TO SEE IT FROM A BLIND'S PERSPECTIVE. Sounds still appear and i noticed that even the blind can see this clearer than with naked eyes. The nothing appearing as a motion. Thanks a lot for your metaphors. It helped me a lot.

With gratitude,

Lee

[Vivien]

Hi Lee,

You did a nice investigation.

I have been untethered after this experiement - i feel like there is nothing to worry about anymore.

Yes :) yet thought of worry might come again, out of habit / conditioning and also from other investigated beliefs. But that’s all right. If that happens, you just pause and look for the self/I that the worry is on behalf.

Just notice that worry or fear is always on behalf of this imagined self. Only a self/I need protection, thus worries. The body doesn’t worry about getting old, being sick, it’s just functions naturally, and yet it has lots of built-in protective mechanisms, like the immune system, or the automatic reflex of pulling away from physical pain, like fire. And yet, it doesn’t worry, it’s never get anxious of the future. All worry is on behalf of this imaginary self/I. Can you see that?

Vivien

[gibberishbla]

Hello Viven!

...thought of worry might come again, out of habit / conditioning and also from other investigated beliefs. But that’s all right. If that happens, you just pause and look for the self/I that the worry is on behalf.

Just notice that worry or fear is always on behalf of this imagined self. Only a self/I need protection, thus worries. The body doesn’t worry about getting old, being sick, it’s just functions naturally, and yet it has lots of built-in protective mechanisms, like the immune system, or the automatic reflex of pulling away from physical pain, like fire. And yet, it doesn’t worry, it’s never get anxious of the future.

All worry is on behalf of this imaginary self/I. Can you see that?

I can see this after watching or seeing my body and thoughts run their own show today and yesterday. There are so many automatic reflexes and rections that occur on their own and the worry kept coming back as well. I REALIZED THAT I CANNOT CHANGE THEM AT ALL BECAUSE I HAVE ZERO CONTROL OVER THEM. ''I'' Is only a believed thought and now the ''I'' is clearly seen. Which means: "CHANGING A BEHAVIOR IS SIMPLY WATCHING THEM CHANGE BY THEMSELVES ROR WITNESSING THEM CHANGING ON THEIR OWN.'' Does that make sense? I mean, many conditioning are still in this body and 'mind', so i can only pretend as if I am attempting to change some things but in truth, I am merely watching its unfolding. Am I right?

[Vivien]

Hi Lee,

Which means: "CHANGING A BEHAVIOR IS SIMPLY WATCHING THEM CHANGE BY THEMSELVES ROR WITNESSING THEM CHANGING ON THEIR OWN.'' Does that make sense? I mean, many conditioning are still in this body and 'mind', so i can only pretend as if I am attempting to change some things but in truth, I am merely watching its unfolding. Am I right?

Yes and no :) so let’s dig a bit deeper here.

Things happen on their own, including any change, yes.
But where is the watcher?

Is there someone actually witnessing thoughts and the body?
Is there a witness?

Is there a watcher separate from the watched?
Is there a witness separate from the witnessed?

Is there someone or something standing apart or outside of experience, looking in and watching the show?
Or watching is just another thing that is just happening on its own, as part of life, part of the whole?

Vivien