The Gate

Hi Vivien,

When you say that thoughts vanish when they are observed, you are talking about thoughts considering whether to by the shoes or not, or do you mean that all thoughts stop?

The thoughts about the shoes stop, but when pretty much any thought is observed clearly, it seems to stop in it it's tracks. For example, there could be a stream of thought, but once there is the noticing and the thoughts are observed, they seem to stop.
At least momentarily anyways.

Is it possible to not have any thoughts even just for a minute?
Set a timer and check.

No, I noticed that thoughts started appearing, thoughts about not wanting thoughts to appear haha.

But is there an actual mind that could stop?

Where is this mind in the very moment you observe it?
What it is like? How bit it is? What shape it has?

And how do you know when this seeming mind has stopped

The mind is just a concept. A mind cannot be found. All that can be seen are thoughts revolving round an 'I' which can give the illusion of a mind being the centre of thoughts. But in DE, all that can be observed is thought.

Is there a desire to figure out ‘who am I’?
What is it having this desire?

Is there an actual I that can figure out who it is?

What is it that wants an identity, to say that this is who I am?

There is a strong desire to find the "I", but that thought and desire is itself just an appearance, an object in consciousness.

Yeah, there isn't an I that can figure it out, it is just a thought of wanting to figure it out

There is no I who can figure it out, that would just be more thoughts, more labels, which are objects that can be observed.

An object will never know the self, since no object is sentient. The real 'I' can't be figured out and doesn't need to be figured out, that is just a thought. The desire to answer 'who am I' isn't needed when 'I' am always effortlessly I.

Cheers,
Reece

Hi Reece,

The mind is just a concept. A mind cannot be found. All that can be seen are thoughts revolving round an 'I' which can give the illusion of a mind being the centre of thoughts. But in DE, all that can be observed is thought.

Yes, the mind is just a concept, to express something, but in actuality, there is only thoughts appearing one at a time.

There is a strong desire to find the "I", but that thought and desire is itself just an appearance, an object in consciousness.

Let’s dig a bit deeper here.

What is this desire to find the I is made of? Is it anything else but a thought, with the content/words “I want to know who I am’?

What/who is thinking that thought?

An object will never know the self, since no object is sentient. The real 'I' can't be figured out and doesn't need to be figured out, that is just a thought. The desire to answer 'who am I' isn't needed when 'I' am always effortlessly I.

Yes, we can say that… but just notice identification when a thought appear “ I am always effortlessly I”. So something definitely exists, we are not denying that. But any claim that “I am that” can be just a hiding place for the imaginary self, so please watch out for this.

Just to make sure that we covered everything, let’s start to investigate the body and sensations. The illusion of the self is not just simply coming from thoughts, but also from the belief that “I am the body” or “I have a body” or that this or that sensation is ‘me’ or the location of the ‘me’, or that this or that sensation is happening to ‘me’. So the thought label ‘this is me’ and the appearing sensations are welded together, creating the seeming ‘sense of self’.

Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes.
Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on verbal or visual thoughts:

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

Is there an inside or an outside?
If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

Look very carefully, especially with the last question. Take your time, don’t rush. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, having a short break from work, walking, etc) before replying.

Vivien

Hi Vivien,

Apologies, I've been unable to get on here today and send a substantial reply. Will send my reply tomorrow if that's ok.

Thanks :)
Reece

No problem, thank you for letting me.

Have a nice day,
Vivien

Hi Vivien,

Sorry again, mega busy! Will sort a reply out tomorrow.

Thanks for your patience.

Reece

All right :)

Hi Vivien,

What is this desire to find the I is made of? Is it anything else but a thought, with the content/words “I want to know who I am’?

What/who is thinking that thought?

Yes, the desire to find an I is just a thought that appears. It's no different to any other thought.

But any claim that “I am that” can be just a hiding place for the imaginary self, so please watch out for this.

I see what you mean yeah. Labelling it as something can turn it into an object, which it is not.

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

It cannot be known how tall and heavy the body is, the shape and form cannot be known also. There is just an observing of sensations/vibrations, and these have no height/weight or shape.

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

No boundary can be found, boundaries is just a concept. All that is observed are sensations/vibrations where the body meets clothing and the chair. There is no set set shape, it's just a sensation.

Is there an inside or an outside?
If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?

Inside and outside is just a concept/thought.
All that can be found are sensations which are observed and perceptions which are observed.
The body is just a name for a bunch of sensations/perceptions which are observed just like all objects that appear.

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

It's just a bunch of perceptions and sensations that are grouped together and labelled as the word 'body'.
While the sensations/perceptions of the body are mostly always observed (except in sleep) and so can feel the most intimate, the sensations/perceptions are still nevertheless appearances that are observed just like every other appearance.
Any appearance is not sentient, it is just an object that appears effortlessly without anyone's control. Nobody can do anything, or more accurately there is nobody even there to do anything. There is just a natural observing of all appearances.

There has been an observation that thought wants to resist this realisation, since still sometimes there is the desire/pull to contemplate/analyse thought. Trying to cling to the belief of a 'thinker' who needs to manage/control the thoughts that appear.
This is more and more getting observed as just another appearance however, all mental thought is just an appearance on what actually is.


Cheers,

Reece

Hi Reece,

All that is observed are sensations/vibrations where the body meets clothing and the chair.

What do you know about clothing and chair with closed eyes?

Does the sensation know or communicate in any way that it’s the ‘touching of clothing or chair’?

How many sensations are there? One for the skin and another for the clothing or the chair?

There is just a natural observing of all appearances.

OK. And what is it that observes?
Where is the observer?
Is there someone or something standing apart from experience, observing it?

There has been an observation that thought wants to resist this realisation, since still sometimes there is the desire/pull to contemplate/analyse thought. Trying to cling to the belief of a 'thinker' who needs to manage/control the thoughts that appear.

What is observing thoughts? Is there someone or something separate from thoughts observing them?

Vivien

Hi Vivien,

What do you know about clothing and chair with closed eyes?

Does the sensation know or communicate in any way that it’s the ‘touching of clothing or chair’?

How many sensations are there? One for the skin and another for the clothing or the chair?

I do not know about the clothing and the chair, there is just sensation. That is all that is known.

There is no communicating, just the raw sensation.

There is just the sensation wherever contact is happening. There is no distinction between skin and object.

OK. And what is it that observes?
Where is the observer?
Is there someone or something standing apart from experience, observing it?

There is nobody or nothing that is an observer. There is just observing. There is nothing standing outside of experience.

What is observing thoughts? Is there someone or something separate from thoughts observing them?

There is nothing observing thoughts. There is nothing separate. Just a knowing of experience, what is happening now, but nothing apart from experience can be found. There is just this.

Reece

Hi Reece,

There is nothing observing thoughts. There is nothing separate. Just a knowing of experience, what is happening now, but nothing apart from experience can be found. There is just this.

How does it feel to see this?

What is the difference between a happening and a doing?

Look around, all colours are given, they are happening. It’s not that the me-character can choose and make colours that are present into different ones. Or choose not to see green and see pink instead. Colours are happening. Shapes are happening. Sounds are happening.

What about sensations? Are they happening or the me-character doing them?

And how about feelings? Are they something the me-character does or something that is given?

Now look, what is not given?

What is not happening effortlessly and needs your doing?
Is there anything that is not just spontaneously arising?

Is the me-character doing anything in life?
Or is the me-character given? As an idea? Or as a self-directed, autonomous entity?


Vivien

Hi Vivien,

How does it feel to see this?

What is the difference between a happening and a doing?

Happening feels lighter, hard to describe a specific feeling since a feeling of just another appearance in consciousness. But things just feel lighter, there is nothing to do and no one to do anything.

Doing feels much heavier since it comes with the belief in being a person who is in control of things that are impossible to control.

What about sensations? Are they happening or the me-character doing them?

And how about feelings? Are they something the me-character does or something that is given?

Now look, what is not given?

There is nobody doing any of these. They all are just happening without any effort from a 'me'.

Everything is given, since everything is just happening. There is no knowing of anything outside of life, everything is happening in life.

What is not happening effortlessly and needs your doing?
Is there anything that is not just spontaneously arising?

Is the me-character doing anything in life?
Or is the me-character given? As an idea? Or as a self-directed, autonomous entity?

Everything is happening effortlessly and arising without anybody making it arise. The idea of there being a person doing anything is just a thought, with this thought just being another object that spontaneously arises.

The 'me' character is just a labelling of a certain bundle of sensations/perceptions that arise. The 'me' character is an illusion created by thought, thought that arises with the content implying that there is a doer - but this is just thoughtness, objects arising in experience.

Cheers,

Reece

Hi Reece,

Happening feels lighter, hard to describe a specific feeling since a feeling of just another appearance in consciousness.

Yes, but this time this is exactly what I’m interested in. In your feelings in your daily life.

So how does the seeing that there is no separate self in reality translate into your daily life?

What perception changes have you noticed about the idea of who you think you were (as being a finite separate autonomous self) in daily living?

How does it feel to realise that actually there is no autonomous entity with free will and doership?

Can you say that there has been a shift from an intellectual understanding of there being no inherent self to an experiential recognition of it?

Can you point to the moment when the shift happened?

And how does the sift itself felt?

Is there any doubt?

Is there anything that is not super clear and you would like to look at?

Vivien

Hi Vivien,

So how does the seeing that there is no separate self in reality translate into your daily life?

Daily life has stayed the same except that things feel lighter. When it's clearly seen that there is no separate self, there is a wave of relief since the mind is not so focused on judging, pushing, pulling and analysing everything to keep up the identity of the 'me'. There is nobody who needs to do anything since there is nobody who can do anything, all appearances can just arise in experience.

Before joining this forum, the 'I' still believed that it needed to understand how to get out of self, thought after thought trying to intellectualise and comprehend non-duality. Now it is clearly seen that this all just simply thoughtness; thought can't get out of thought and self can't get out of self. There is no self to get out of, it never existed. It was simply an illusion created by the content of thought.

What perception changes have you noticed about the idea of who you think you were (as being a finite separate autonomous self) in daily living?

Sensations and perceptions that are labelled the 'body and mind' are also simply objects that arise in experience. These sensations and perceptions are also controlled by nobody, they also organically arise just like all objects do.

How does it feel to realise that actually there is no autonomous entity with free will and doership?

There is definite relief. The freedom from choice, not having to analyse and figure everything out. Believing there is a thinker/doer leads to zooming in on thoughts since it feels like there is a responsibility there that must be tended to. Thought just snowballs further and further into more thought, there is no end to thought. This zooming in would cause a resistance/tension and the burden can feel extremely heavy.

Clearly seeing there is no doer is freedom from all of that. Thought is seen as just thoughtness, another object in experience.

Can you say that there has been a shift from an intellectual understanding of there being no inherent self to an experiential recognition of it?

100%. It actually makes me giggle how 'I' used to think that I understood this intellectually but not experientially, haha.
That was simply thought appearing.

All questions and expectations were just thoughts arising in what already is here, what was being looked for.

Can you point to the moment when the shift happened?

Couldn't point to a specific time to be honest. It has just been a steady and subtle shift since this dialogue opened up between us. The last week or so has felt the most significant change however.

And how does the sift itself felt?

Life is just feeling lighter. Thought is naturally & simply seen more and more seen as just thoughtness and there is nobody that has control over the body and mind. Thoughts often now aren't even fully formed, they appear to trail off before the sentence is even finished since they are just seen as arising objects.

Is there any doubt?

Thought still appears and try to prove that their is a doer sometimes. But when it is seen that there is nobody here, the thoughts surrounding a separate self don't seem to entice attention.

Is there anything that is not super clear and you would like to look at?

No, I don't think so. You've been very helpful with your questioning and prodding and I just want to express my gratitude for this investigation that you have ran through with me. It has really helped clear a lot of things up! Thank you :)

Cheers,

Reece

Hi Reece,

Thank you for your replies. What we usually do at this stage, we usually ask some checking questions to see if everything is clear. Some questions might be similar to what I asked before, but please write to them as if this were the first time replying to them.

Please answer the following questions with some detail please, and answer what's true for you rather than any sort of 'ideal' answer. Also please provide examples where asked.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Share in your own words what the illusion of separate self is and how it shows up in experience. Also, through your inquiry, what is different now?

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

6) Anything to add?

Vivien

Hi Vivien,

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

No, the 'I' never existed. It is just a story created by thought. A labelling of certain sensations/perceptions as 'me'. In DE these sensations and perceptions are just objects, just like all other objects that equally arise.

2) Share in your own words what the illusion of separate self is and how it shows up in experience. Also, through your inquiry, what is different now?

When the thought is believed that a separate 'I' exists, this then leads to the belief that there is a 'me' responsible for managing thoughts, controlling actions, making decisions and so on. This can make daily life feel exhausting and heavy, the constant burden of making decisions, having to use mental acrobatics to keep up identities and navigate life, judge and analyse thoughts etc.

Through inquiry, when the separate self is clearly seen as non-existent, life is the same but it now feels lighter. The sensations and perceptions of the mind and body are just objects arising like every other object in DE.
Rather than believing that there is an 'I' that has a freedom of choice, there is now a clear freedom FROM choice. It is relieving to see that there is nobody there doing anything, it's all just one big effortless play. There is more acceptance to what is, a surrendering, just everything being as it is.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

Things just feel lighter, it is relieving to be free from all the constant effort that was required to keep up the appearances of an 'I'. Things can just be let be.

Before this dialogue, there were definitely still subtle beliefs that were reinforcing the separate self. A strong desire to understand non-duality, an expectation of what awakening should feel like, and also the belief that 'I' had some control over attention.
The investigations that you have put me through have really clarified that there is no 'I' here, and have shed light on the fact that the beliefs listed above are also just thoughts, content that appears in DE. They are not 'me'. Believing in the content of these thoughts just reinforce the separate self.

There is still zooming in on thought, but the recognition that there is no self and that thoughts are just objects in DE happens much more quickly and frequently now, which naturally creates a strong state acceptance and surrender, where everything can effortlessly arise and fall on its own without anybody doing anything. DE feels much more restful.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

It has felt more like a steady process over the last several weeks but one of the pivotal moments for sure was when you made me question who actually has the strong desire to find the self. This really made clear that the burning desire to understand non-duality and find the self was just thoughtness, and a belief in this thoughtness was clouding what actually already is. The awareness that is already here without any effort, 'behind' (if you could say that) all the content that appears.

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.

These are all just labels and concepts created by thought. Through thorough investigation in DE, free will simply does not exist. It is illogical. There is no awareness of anything outside of DE, objects can only be observed once they are in experience. There's nothing observable outside of DE, pulling the strings and navigating life. Everything arises and happens effortlessly without any entity making it happen.

Some examples:
- There were several meal options for lunch that could've been chosen today. Thoughts just arose in experience. After a stream of thoughts there was then a final thought/desire to eat one meal more so than the others. These all appeared spontaneously without anybody deciding anything
- The body functions effortlessly. The heart beats, breathing occurs, digestions happens all without anybody putting in effort. Likewise, functions such as walking, lifting up a mug or opening a door also happen without effort.
- Conversations happen organically and flow naturally without anybody actually putting in any effort. Nobody is moving the mouth, creating sounds and choosing what words come out. It is just arising effortlessly.

One thing that has been noticed is that in a situation when a decision needs to be made, when trying to wait for an 'I' to make a choice, this seems to cause an inability for a decision to happen, since an 'I' never makes a choice, there are just thoughts/desires that appear. Yet when it is seen that there is no 'I', there is a growing acceptance and surrender and everything seems to flow effortlessly.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

There is no 'I' responsible for anything. Everything arises on its own without any effort from anybody, and so there is nobody present to be responsible for anything.

Despite experientially seeing that there is not an 'I', nothing has changed in a worldly sense. What needs to be done is done. When I'm at work, the tasks at hand are still completed, in my personal life all my commitments and duties are upheld, but there is nobody responsible for controlling and performing these. These responsibilities just arise and are fulfilled effortlessly.

6) Anything to add?

No not really, there has been a recurring thought over the past few days, a doubting thought as to whether non-duality is just simply another belief that has replaced an old belief, and whether it is a form of spiritual bypassing etc etc.

This however is seen as a thought arising in DE. A belief is just another thought, more content in DE. DE is just the effortlessly allowing of all appearances.

I would also just like to say a big thank you for taking the time to guide me along this investigation over the past several weeks. I'm very very grateful :)

Cheers,
Reece