Seeing No Self

[pozablo]

Can you tell the difference between trying to tell me how things are from what actually occurs in experience?

[Leviathan77]

Can you tell the difference between trying to tell me how things are from what actually occurs in experience?

I am describing what I see in experience. Word are already an indirect method - I'm not sure what kind of response you are looking for.

I see the personal self as an object in the mind and it's mistaken for the real self. And the true Self witnesses (what I really am), passing thoughts, senses, feelings. The personal self is not needed to feel, to sense, to think, it's an assumption of what is in control of the experience.

[pozablo]

Ok, your last post sounds pretty clear.
And yes, language can be really confusing!
But, we still have to make sure that it actually is clear to you!

Thoughts show up suddenly and pass through the mind without creating other thoughts. There is just a stream of thoughts being created from nowhere.The organism is what is recognized, and does not do the recognizing. I am aware of the experience of the organism, but there is a feeling separation between the organism and the watcher…. The watcher sees everything happening, but feels it exists beyond everything happening…. The watcher is the awareness that sees everything happening in experience. It is not thoughts, not feelings, but it is what is experiencing all of these things happening….If I move to a different location, and change the surroundings, I still feel like not having moved because of the stillness of the watcher…. The self that sees is separate from everything that is happening, not attached. Just watching

So when you move the watcher is still?
And the watcher sees things, and experiences things, and feels that it exists?
And there is a self that is separate from everything that is happening and not attached but watches?
And there is a you that recognizes the self and the organism and the watcher?
And thoughts pass through the mind?
So we have a you, a watcher, a self, an organism, and a mind.
I have to admit this is all very confusing to me!

The personal is what is seen as being ‘me’ by what is seeing.

After looking carefully again at what is happening in experience, and answering the above questions, can you be more clear on this?

[pozablo]

Ok, your last post sounds pretty clear.
And yes, language can be really confusing!
But, we still have to make sure that it actually is clear to you!

Thoughts show up suddenly and pass through the mind without creating other thoughts. There is just a stream of thoughts being created from nowhere.The organism is what is recognized, and does not do the recognizing. I am aware of the experience of the organism, but there is a feeling separation between the organism and the watcher…. The watcher sees everything happening, but feels it exists beyond everything happening…. The watcher is the awareness that sees everything happening in experience. It is not thoughts, not feelings, but it is what is experiencing all of these things happening….If I move to a different location, and change the surroundings, I still feel like not having moved because of the stillness of the watcher…. The self that sees is separate from everything that is happening, not attached. Just watching

So when you move the watcher is still?
And the watcher sees things, and experiences things, and feels that it exists?
And there is a self that is separate from everything that is happening and not attached but watches?
And there is a you that recognizes the self and the organism and the watcher?
And thoughts pass through the mind?
So we have a you, a watcher, a self, an organism, and a mind.
I have to admit this is all very confusing to me!

The personal is what is seen as being ‘me’ by what is seeing.

After looking carefully again at what is happening in experience, and answering the above questions, can you be more clear on this?

[Leviathan77]

So when you move the watcher is still?

There is a deeper sense of being or presence that is undisturbed by everything happening in the world.

And the watcher sees things, and experiences things, and feels that it exists?

Yes, there is a watcher existing and experiencing thoughts, feelings, etc.

And there is a self that is separate from everything that is happening and not attached but watches?

The watcher, yes it's not attached to what is happening in thoughts, feelings, sensation.

And there is a you that recognizes the self and the organism and the watcher?

No there is no 'me' that is recognizing or has any responsibility. The watcher/Self recognizes itself as not being 'me.' Organism could refer to the biology.

And thoughts pass through the mind?

Thoughts and the mind are the same. There is no mind without thoughts.

After looking carefully again at what is happening in experience, and answering the above questions, can you be more clear on this?

There is no personal, only an assumption of the personal in thoughts, feeling, and the senses. But there is no real 'me' acting in thinking, feeling, etc. There is only watching things happening in the wirld without the need for existence of a me.

[pozablo]

OK, thanks.
We’re getting closer, I think.

Now you report
1] a sense of being/presence, and
2] thoughts, and
3] a watcher that exists and recognizes itself and experiences thoughts, and
4] an assumption of the personal.

Is that correct?
Can you clarify each of these, please?
How do these actually appear in consciousness?
Please be very concrete and specific and detailed!

[pozablo]

Dear Leviathan,
This is not a test where we are trying to get you to see the correct answer.
If there is even the slightest notion on your part that this is so, or if there is even the slightest desire to come up with the "right" answers, this just isn't going to work.

This is simply an attempt to help you carefully explore what is actually happening.
If that is your pure and simple goal, I can help.
Otherwise, i really can't, I'm sorry.

Just tell me what you actually observe!!! There's no right or wrong answer. Only when I can understand what you actually observe in pure experience, can I guide you to the next step.

/p

[Leviathan77]

OK, thanks.
We’re getting closer, I think.

Now you report
1] a sense of being/presence, and
2] thoughts, and
3] a watcher that exists and recognizes itself and experiences thoughts, and
4] an assumption of the personal.

Is that correct?
Can you clarify each of these, please?
How do these actually appear in consciousness?
Please be very concrete and specific and detailed!

1. When there is no thinking, or feeling there is always a sense of being. It’s like a contrast to thinking and feeling, it exists as an empty space for thoughts, feelings, and senses to be experienced. It feels like the deepest sense of self.
2. Thoughts feel like a blockage in the head, and they blur experiencing the material world. They attach to awareness as something permeant and fixed, about a story of me. Thoughts appear suddenly and they are reaching out from nowhere trying to grasp attention.
3. The watcher is recognized as not being thoughts, feeling, etc. But there is an empty space where everything is happening and is being witnessed.
4. Feelings, senses, thoughts are experienced without any cohesion of a ‘me’ that makes it happen, but are spontaneous happenings. There is no real me, it’s just something that is being imagined as owning the experience.

[pozablo]

Hi Leviathan,

I have a bit of a problem. I would have given you more notice, but actually thought we would be able to finish by now.
Unfortunately, it looks like this will take a bit more guiding. Perhaps, from a more experienced guide than I, not much more.

In 3 days I leave the country and will literally be without internet for about 4-5 months.

I would suggest that you start over with a new guide by posting as you originally did, You can clarify the actual situation when a new guide picks you up.

Please accept my apologies for this late notice, but a more experienced guide will probably be more helpful to you than I have been!

It's been a pleasure, and I wish you the best!

I will sign off now.

Warmly,
Pablo

[Lubo]

Hi Leviathan,
Thank you for waiting.

My name is Lubo and I can accompany you on this journey,if you are OK?

So where are you now?
what is coming when you read this:
There is no separate self. It never was, not even now.
There is no free will, no owner of life. There is no thinker.
Leviathan and Santa do not exist.

Thank you for the honesty,

lubo

[Leviathan77]

Hi Leviathan,
Thank you for waiting.

My name is Lubo and I can accompany you on this journey,if you are OK?

Hi Lubo. I apologize for my late response. I have been monitoring this board, but I didn't receive an email notifying me of your response. I will have to check my settings, but I am here now. I would appreciate your guidance, thank you.

So where are you now?

There is no 'me' here. Looking outside there is sight of trees without a 'me' causing seeing, and there is a thought about the trees without a 'me' directing thoughts. Everything happens without need of a 'me.''

There is no separate self. It never was, not even now.
There is no free will, no owner of life. There is no thinker.
Leviathan and Santa do not exist.

I agree with this. Leviathan is just a made up story about ownership and control of life. Desires are not selected, thoughts are not selected, the body moves without a 'me' dictating instructions are controlling the movement. Free will cannot exist.

[Lubo]

Hi Leviathan,
Very nice , thank you.

Let's talk little bit more if you don't mind.
Does the seeking stop?
When exactly shift happens?
What happens?
What is seen?

What are you, what is your understanding in this moment?

Thank you for the honesty,
lubo

[Leviathan77]

Does the seeking stop?

Yes, I'm no longer seeking.

When exactly shift happens?

Watching thinking, and the character Leviathan involved in a narrative about the world, there is a feeling of total detachment from the importance and relevance of the narrative, and it is something illusory.

What is seen?

That there is no real Leviathan; that so many emotions, and thoughts are tied to the non-existent Leviathan, but they do not require the existence of Leviathan. Everything feels relaxed, and can just be, thoughts, feelings, etc.

What are you, what is your understanding in this moment?

I am the source of awareness, that sees thoughts, experiences feelings, and experiences the body, sights, sounds, tastes.

[Lubo]

Hi Leviathan,

You sounds pretty clear. Very good :)

There is still somewhere, holding on identity:

I am the source of awareness, that sees thoughts, experiences feelings, and experiences the body, sights, sounds, tastes.

Where the word awareness and word seeing point to? Are there different things?
Is there a gap between awareness, seeing and the seen?
Please, when you describe what is found, don't use word awareness, use simple words that even 10 years old child can understand.

The story tells that Buddha give to the seeker named Bahiya a sutta which points to the truth.
Read it many times and write what is coming:

In the seen, there is only the seen,
in the heard, there is only the heard,
in the sensed, there is only the sensed,
in the cognized, there is only the cognized.
Thus you should see that
indeed there is no thing here;
this, Bahiya, is how you should train yourself.
Since, Bahiya, there is for you
in the seen, only the seen,
in the heard, only the heard,
in the sensed, only the sensed,
in the cognized, only the cognized,
and you see that there is no thing here,
you will therefore see that
indeed there is no thing there.
As you see that there is no thing there,
you will see that
you are therefore located neither in the world of this,
nor in the world of that,
nor in any place
betwixt the two.
This alone is the end of suffering.” (ud. 1.10)


Much love to you,
lubo

[Leviathan77]

Where the word awareness and word seeing point to? Are there different things?
Is there a gap between awareness, seeing and the seen?
Please, when you describe what is found, don't use word awareness, use simple words that even 10 years old child can understand.

The story tells that Buddha give to the seeker named Bahiya a sutta which points to the truth.
Read it many times and write what is coming:

In the seen, there is only the seen,
in the heard, there is only the heard,
in the sensed, there is only the sensed,
in the cognized, there is only the cognized.
Thus you should see that
indeed there is no thing here;
this, Bahiya, is how you should train yourself.
Since, Bahiya, there is for you
in the seen, only the seen,
in the heard, only the heard,
in the sensed, only the sensed,
in the cognized, only the cognized,
and you see that there is no thing here,
you will therefore see that
indeed there is no thing there.
As you see that there is no thing there,
you will see that
you are therefore located neither in the world of this,
nor in the world of that,
nor in any place
betwixt the two.
This alone is the end of suffering.” (ud. 1.10)


Much love to you,
lubo

Awareness and seeing are the same phenomenon, and they are that which is seen. There is no gap between the process of seeing and the seen. When looking out at the world, there is no Leviathan in seeing. Thinking does not a require a separate self to think, thinking just happens.

As the buddha described, there is no thing in between what is seen and seeing, or any separate self. To continue to believe in the illusion of a separate self creates resistance and anxiety, like an object opposing the flow of a water current.