Can you see me?

[Vivien]

All right, thank you for letting me know :)

[HaHo]

Can you see that continuity or that one caused the other is just a story, nothing else?

Yes. It is obvious that one thought causing another thought is in itself a third thought whose content is as fictitious as any thought. Thinking something to be a certain way is part of a story.

When walking, what do you do in order for the legs to move?
Are you making walking happen, or it just happens automatically and effortlessly?

When walking, no effort is required to move or co-ordinate the legs. It doesn’t require thought or any other type of control. The required amount of exertion or walking style just happens on its own and changes depending on things like terrain and ground conditions.
I am not making walking happen. There can be a thought to walk the dog and walking may occur or it may not. Either outcome is not dependent on that thought. Walking, when it happens, is automatic and effortless. It seems even more so when there is looking at walking while walking. It quickly becomes strikingly obvious that all movement is uncontrolled and automatic.

When you sit down, or stand up, is this something you do, or something that is happening?

The activity of standing or sitting either happens or it doesn’t and when it does it doesn’t feel like something I do. It feels like something that happens. There can be a noticing that a meeting has ended and standing can happen but it’s all on autopilot and that includes gathering the paperwork, standing, pushing in the chair and disinfecting the table. There was an earlier thought that disinfecting the table would happen and it did, but while cleaning the table was happening, there was just a noticing of it happening and no consideration given to the making if it happen.

Notice all sorts of sensations in the body.

Are you making the sensations happen, or they are there, without anyone or anything making them to be?

They happen on their own. Involuntary.

There is feeling a little sick and there is the thought, “I shouldn’t have eaten that much chocolate and then drank a coffee”. Did the overindulgence lead to the sensation of feeling nauseous? The initial thought is story as is the question thought as would be a conclusion thought. There was eating and drinking and a sensation and a thought and another thought. The sensation simply happened and no-one made it be.

When breathing happens, are you making it to happen, or it happens automatically without anyone making it happen?

This happens automatically and there is no-one making it happen.

When preparing food, or eating, washing your hands, typing, brushing your teeth, dressing up, are you making the hands move, or the hands just move by themselves?

The hand movement is very much happening autonomously. Even when typing on a keyboard where the next button is “known” there is no need for a controller to make typing happen.

Is there a central controller somewhere in the body, from where strings are pulled to lift the arms, and move the body? Or all of it just happening automatically?

This is easy. There is no central controller. It’s all happening and doesn’t require or use a controller. Everything is simply happening. I was watching others today and it struck me that they were happening automatically just as I was. I found it very easy to be looking without feeling I was doing anything to make things happen. It’s like a symphony where everything is happening in unison but there’s no-one in charge.

[HaHo]

I’d like to clarify the sentence, “I found it very easy to be looking without feeling I was doing anything to make things happen” because it sounds as though I was attempting to feel a certain way. That is not the case. There was the looking at the happening and an obvious noticing that there wasn’t any controller.

[Vivien]

Hi HaHo,

You did a really nice investigation :)

Is there anything that is standing apart separately from experience?

What about the body? Is the body the experiencer? Or the body shows up AS experience?

Is there a separate self in reality other than a thought idea?
Is there any doubt?

How does it feel to see this?

Is there anything that is not totally clear and you would like to look at?

Vivien

[HaHo]

Hi Vivien,

Is there anything that is standing apart separately from experience?

No. Even story or thought content is not separate as it is reality in the form of a thought.

What about the body? Is the body the experiencer? Or the body shows up AS experience?

Body is a story about experiencing.

There is no experiencer or experiencing. For there to be an experiencer there would need to be a position outside of reality. Something separate from reality that could experience it. So there isn't anything, be it a body, a dog, or a so called Self that experiences. This is quite profound because it implies there being no separate body, dog or Self, just experience/reality itself. Now, I don’t see this as an actuality but I see the implication within the thought concept.

Is there a separate self in reality other than a thought idea?

No.

Is there any doubt?

There is absolutely no doubt, however there can be Self thoughts, which are seen as thought content.

How does it feel to see this?

Unremarkable. It seems just matter of fact. There is no self and there is no big deal about that. This is because absolutely nothing changes in the seeing of that. Like zero change. Life is the exact same except there can be an acknowledgement that things are simply happening without anything actively being done by a Self.

Is there anything that is not totally clear and you would like to look at?

What has been discussed so far in this thread is clear.

Vivien

[Vivien]

Hi HaHo,

There is no experiencer or experiencing. For there to be an experiencer there would need to be a position outside of reality. Something separate from reality that could experience it. So there isn't anything, be it a body, a dog, or a so called Self that experiences. This is quite profound because it implies there being no separate body, dog or Self, just experience/reality itself. Now, I don’t see this as an actuality but I see the implication within the thought concept.

Maybe you have an expectation how seeing non-separation should be like, and you compare it with the current seeing with the conclusion “this is not it!”. So let’s look into this.

Is there an experiencer outside of experience? Can you find one? Or you can only ever imagine one?

Separation is supposed to be between experience and experiencer.

But when it’s clearly seen that there is no experiencer, then where is separation?
And is there Self with big S? Where?

Separation would be between Self and everything else (experience), but is there such thing as Self?
So where is separation then?

And what does the expression of ‘separate body’ mean?
Separate from experience, as an experiencer… or.. do you mean being able to distinguish between 2 bodies?

Seeing that there is no separation is not about not being able to distinguish between 2 bodies, or between a dog and a body, or a body and a table… that would be catastrophic :)

Non-separation is about seeing if the body is separate from experience (if body is the experiencer of experience).

So, is there anything else to the body itself than experience (of sensations and colors)?

Or there is something standing apart from those sensations and colors and experiencing the sensations and colors?
So, where is separation then?

Is the body the experiencer, or the body shows up AS an experience?

Vivien

[HaHo]

Maybe you have an expectation how seeing non-separation should be like, and you compare it with the current seeing with the conclusion “this is not it!”. So let’s look into this.
Is there an experiencer outside of experience? Can you find one? Or you can only ever imagine one?

There is no experiencer outside of reality. Nor is there one inside of reality. There is no experiencer, full stop. I can’t find one however it can be imagined.

Separation is supposed to be between experience and experiencer.
But when it’s clearly seen that there is no experiencer, then where is separation?

There isn’t separation because there is nothing to separate as there is no experiencer. There is only experience/reality.

And is there Self with big S? Where?

There is no Self.

Separation would be between Self and everything else (experience), but is there such thing as Self?
So where is separation then?

There is no Self and therefore there can’t be anything connected or unconnected with or to the non-existent Self. There is no separation.

And what does the expression of ‘separate body’ mean?
Separate from experience, as an experiencer… or.. do you mean being able to distinguish between 2 bodies?

I meant the implication was that there are no objects separate from reality. I could have equally used any three random objects.

So to answer your question, when I used the term ‘separate body’ I meant an object separate from reality/experience, and not as an experiencer. Again the object ‘body’ could have been any object as I wasn’t making any significant point by using the object ‘body’ over anything else.

Seeing that there is no separation is not about not being able to distinguish between 2 bodies, or between a dog and a body, or a body and a table… that would be catastrophic :)

Lol, this is good to know because, for whatever reason, I thought seeing that there is no separation would mean seeing that there is no separation between objects!

Non-separation is about seeing if the body is separate from experience (if body is the experiencer of experience).

So, is there anything else to the body itself than experience (of sensations and colors)?

No, there is nothing in between. Experience, so to speak, is right in your face. It’s raw, unfiltered and immediate. There is just the sound, but no-one hearing it. There is just sound experience, and so on.

Or there is something standing apart from those sensations and colors and experiencing the sensations and colors?

There is just the sensations and colours happening.

So, where is separation then?

For there to be separation there needs to be two things to separate and I can’t see anything that is not experience/reality.

Is the body the experiencer, or the body shows up AS an experience?

I don’t fully understand this question. Previously we discussed my difficulty in comprehending your use of the word ‘experience’ and I said that I would likely always struggle to remove my interpretation of that word as being a personal thing, i.e. my experience or I had an experience. We concluded that experience=reality and that has worked up until now.

This is how I have read the above question and why I’m not clear on it:

“Is the body the experiencer, or the body shows up as reality?”

With all of that said I would say that the body is not an/the experiencer. The body is simply part of reality. When a sound occurs outside the body, the body hears (or experiences) the sound, and both the sound and the body are part of reality. But there is nothing separate from reality that hears the sound.

[Vivien]

Hi HaHo,

V: Is the body the experiencer, or the body shows up AS an experience?

H: I don’t fully understand this question. Previously we discussed my difficulty in comprehending your use of the word ‘experience’ and I said that I would likely always struggle to remove my interpretation of that word as being a personal thing, i.e. my experience or I had an experience. We concluded that experience=reality and that has worked up until now.

With the word experience I mean: sound, color, taste, smell, sensation (+ knowing the presence of a thought as a phenomenon, but NOT the content).
Everything else is just and ADDED extra by thoughts.

So the body shows up as an experience, as a sound, color, taste, smell and sensation, right?
So is the body the experiencer of experience (color, sound, taste, smell, sensation)?

With all of that said I would say that the body is not an/the experiencer. The body is simply part of reality. When a sound occurs outside the body, the body hears (or experiences) the sound, and both the sound and the body are part of reality. But there is nothing separate from reality that hears the sound.

We can dig a bit deeper here since it seems that there is a belief here that the body is the experiencer.. since you say that the body hears or experienced the sound… but is that so?

How could the body be the experiencer if all there is to the body is experience?

Is there anything else to the body than experience (color, sound, taste, smell, sensation)? Anything at all?

So how could the body hear a sound? Is that possible?
Or is this just a learn knowledge which has never been looked at before accepted as a fact?

Find somewhere quiet to sit. Rest for a moment and listen to the sounds in the room where you are, or sounds from outside. Whatever it is, I'll just refer to it as ‘sound’.

In 'hearing' can anything be found other than ‘sound’?
Can what is doing the hearing be found? Or is there only the ‘sound'?
An 'I'? a 'body'? a 'person'? a brain? A pair of ears?

Is there a body actually doing/experiencing the sound? Or is there just ‘sound'?
What do you find?

Can the body be the hearer/experience? How so if the body itself is just experienced?

Vivien

[HaHo]

Hi Vivien,

I’d like to start off by saying the word body is simply a word. The concept of a body is thought content and thought ideas. The visual representation of the body is colour and shade. Sound and sensation and taste and smell are experience and have no connection to thought content. So I really do not think there is a body, as mad as that may sound, however there appears to be an object which we call the body in conversation.

So the body shows up as an experience, as a sound, color, taste, smell and sensation, right?

If the colour blue fills the entire vision it is just there as blue. Nothing is seeing it or experiencing it as the blue is too immediate. It is just blue and doesn’t need to be seen or experienced to be blue. I don’t see the body ‘showing up’.

So is the body the experiencer of experience (color, sound, taste, smell, sensation)?

No. There is nothing that can be called an experiencer. There is only direct experience.

We can dig a bit deeper here since it seems that there is a belief here that the body is the experiencer.. since you say that the body hears or experienced the sound… but is that so?

Well spotted, haha. The belief in the story of scientific explanations is sticky. It is ingrained and second nature, and goes unquestioned.

The body doesn’t hear or experience, there is just the sound happening.

How could the body be the experiencer if all there is to the body is experience?

It couldn’t be the experiencer. Also, there can’t be a body if all there is is experience.

Is there anything else to the body than experience (color, sound, taste, smell, sensation)? Anything at all?

No. I’d suggest there isn’t even a body.

So how could the body hear a sound? Is that possible?

No. There is just the sound which happens separate from the concept of a body which is just a thought.

Or is this just a learn knowledge which has never been looked at before accepted as a fact?

Yes, very much so.

Find somewhere quiet to sit. Rest for a moment and listen to the sounds in the room where you are, or sounds from outside. Whatever it is, I'll just refer to it as ‘sound’.

In 'hearing' can anything be found other than ‘sound’?

There is no hearing, there is just the sound.

Can what is doing the hearing be found? Or is there only the ‘sound'?
An 'I'? a 'body'? a 'person'? a brain? A pair of ears?

This is easy. No, nothing is hearing and there is no hearer. There is just the sound.

Is there a body actually doing/experiencing the sound? Or is there just ‘sound'?
What do you find?

As there is no hearing, there can’t be a hearer. There is just the sound already.

Can the body be the hearer/experience?

Not sure if you meant to write, “....be the hearer/experiencer…” with the ‘r’ added as I have done in the quotes. It’s funny how such a little thing as a single letter can have a big effect. I’ll wait to hear back from you on that before answering.

How so if the body itself is just experienced?

I’m not seeing how “the body is just experienced”. I can see the body is pure experience and experience doesn’t need the concept of a body.

[Vivien]

Hi HaHo,

So I really do not think there is a body, as mad as that may sound, however there appears to be an object which we call the body in conversation.

No, it doesn’t sound mad :) actually, this was the point to see :)

Yes, the body is just a mental concept linking tother certain experiences (like sensations and certain colors).
I’m not seeing how “the body is just experienced”. I can see the body is pure experience and experience doesn’t need the concept of a body.

Yes. So the word ‘body’ is just a label on experience.

You did a nice investigation.

Can you say with certainly that it has been clearly seen that there is no separate self in reality?
Is there any doubt?

Is there anything that is not super clear and you would like to look at?

Vivien

[HaHo]

Hi Vivien,

Can you say with certainly that it has been clearly seen that there is no separate self in reality?
Is there any doubt?

Yes, I can say with certainty. There are no doubts. There can be, and are, “I” or ‘Me” thoughts which are seen merely as thoughts.

Is there anything that is not super clear and you would like to look at?

No, everything we have discussed is clear and there is nothing lingering that is prompting any questions.

[Vivien]

Hi HaHo,

All right. At this stage, we usually ask some checking questions to see if everything is clear.

Please answer the following questions with some detail please, and answer what's true for you rather than any sort of 'ideal' answer. Also please provide examples where asked.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Share in your own words what the illusion of separate self is and how it shows up in experience. Also, through your inquiry, what is different now?

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

6) Anything to add?

Vivien

[HaHo]

Hi Vivien,

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?

No, there is no entity. There is nothing to be found. There can be thoughts or sensations to do with a self however a self can’t be found.

Was there ever?

No. There wasn’t a self that was here and is now gone. There was never a self.

2) Share in your own words what the illusion of separate self is and how it shows up in experience.

There is no self but it can be believed there is a self that occupies the body and is the thinker of thoughts and the doer of actions. The belief is that whatever is happening is happening to the self and that the self has the power to affect What Is by making decisions and choosing actions that will bring about desired outcomes. The illusion is that there is no self however there can appear to be one present.
The self is implied and assumed and goes unquestioned. The thought, “I did that” shows the mechanism at work. Something occurs and afterwards there is thought story which claims ownership, explains motivations, gives reasoning etc. Likewise if a predicted behaviour or action doesn’t occur then thought story quickly explains why “I didn’t behave the way I was expecting myself” to. Again, this occurs after the event or non event.

As experience there can be bodily sensations which are an assumed centre of self and, thought content about a self.

There can also be social conditioning with so called selves confirming their existence to each other all day every day.

The best way to describe this illusion is with a graphic of a Kanizsa triangle. The implied triangle represents the Self and the corners represent belief in a self, bodily sensations of a centre/self, societal affirmations of a self and whatever else may contribute to the illusion. Ultimately though, there is no self and there is no illusion. It’s all just story.

Also, through your inquiry, what is different now?

Now it is seen that there is no self whereas prior to this inquiry it was a belief that there was no self. It is also seen that there is no body. There is just experience.

3) How does it feel to see this? Please report from the past few days.
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?

Seeing there is no entity called a self feels very normal. So much so that it almost doesn’t warrant discussion. I don’t see it as particularly significant. Perhaps this is because, for the last two years, I already believed there wasn’t a self. There wasn’t a noticeable moment (or I don’t remember) a point in time that I saw there was no self. The crossover from belief to actually seeing was seamless.

What did feel significant however and was a surprise was the seeing that there is no body. Seeing that was a moment that can be recalled. Experience is literally direct. It is not filtered by an experiencer, be that of a self or a body. It is immediate and nothing can insert itself inbetween it.

The difference from what is seen now to prior to this LU dialogue is that before there was a physical sense of being present in the body that showed up from time to time. Now that is absent so far and should it arrive it would be seen as a sensation and not associated with a Me. The same with thoughts which include “Me” or “I”. They can appear and they are seen as thoughts and are not identified with.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

Examining the false belief that the body was an experiencer and seeing through that, brought about a realisation.

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen?

Wow, this answer could be pages long so I will answer the five things as one. Decision, intention, free will, choice and control are all attributes given to the illusory self. They are illusory and appear in the content of thought as story.

There isn’t anything that makes things happen there is just what’s happening. An attempt to explain how things happen would be a story.

How does it work?

There’s nothing that’s “working” as a result of anything else causing it.

Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.

There aren’t recent experiences as nothing is being experienced. There was walking the dog today and I can say, “I walked the dog today”. I could enter into story about how, “I wasn’t planning to walk the dog but walking the dog happened and I got absolutely soaked”, but during the walk there was thought and sensations of cold and wet and sound. So things are just happening and there is no how.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

There is no self that could be responsible so there is no responsibility. There being no Me’s means there is no doing, there is just ‘being done’, which negates the concept responsibility. Again, there are no experiences that could be listed, only fictional stories.

6) Anything to add?

Nothing is coming up.

[Vivien]

Hi HaHo,

Thank you for your responses. I am going to ask other guides to have a look at the thread to ensure that I have covered everything and that my pointing has been clear. This may take a few days. Other guides might have further questions, and if they do, I will bring them to you.

Vivien

[Vivien]

Hi HaHo,

Other guides have no further questions for you. It has been a pleasure to explore the concept of the separate self with you. Thank you for being open and willing to look.

Keep an eye out for an email notification notifying you of a PM (private message) from the forum inviting you to join our aftercare groups on Facebook. If you don't receive an email notification, you can access your PM's from the forum once you have logged in. The PM also details other resources available to you.

Your username will change from green to blue which indicates that you have had the realisation of there being no separate self. This thread will be moved to the ‘Archive’ section of the forum, but you will be able to access it.

You can contact me at any time if you have any questions via private message here on the forum, or via Facebook if you decide to join our groups there.

Please don’t forget that this is just a beginning. It’s the beginning of cleaning up of conditionings, which needs further looking to help them to dissolve. All sorts of old beliefs, emotions and feeling can come up to see them and feel them. Please don’t stop looking if you want things to deepen.

If something comes up and you don’t know how to deal with it, please feel free to contact me, so we can have a look. I do further looking private sessions (video calls) and emotional inquiry. If you are interested, you can read more about that on my website (you can find the link in my signature).

Vivien