Postby Andyjones » Sun Aug 23, 2020 1:08 pm
Than you. Sorry for the delay, this took some thinking about!
Introductory thoughts
The use of ‘i’ here is meant to represent ‘this mind body’ rather than I or Self.
i think it would be helpful, for me at least, to pre-empt my responses with a brief exploration / explanation of where i was before this dialogue, because in some ways the experience of seeing through is more subtle than i was expecting.
i have been seeking ever since i was a child, remembering being painfully self conscious and being brought up praying weekly in a church but to something i did not understand. i explored self hypnosis as a teenager and started meditating when 17. Zipping on the next 35 years or so, i had a successful career, but one that led to me feeling that i had to stay ‘in control’ and not be my ‘real’ self because this would lead to less success. i have thankfully had (two) good marriages and have two sets of children with whom i have good relationships, and i have maintained an exploration of religion, philosophy and Buddhism in particular.
Professionally, i’ve dissected dead bodies, and seen personalities disintegrate, so have a broad experience of what other Selves consist of, and have reflected on the physical construction and deconstruction of my own body / brain.
In leisure time at one point i got completely stuck when reading Spinoza, a philosopher who takes a ruthlessly deterministic approach to life, finding myself unable to argue against the conclusion that we are the result of genes and experience so have never had any ‘free’ will or ‘independent’ decision making.
So intellectually i was there with the idea of the Self being an illusion, but that was not My experience, still being Self-conscious and believing I had to stay in control.
Over the last few years i was past my professional peak, able to relax a bit, free up time and further develop my Buddhist interests. i found i was able to learn the lower Jhanas, concentrated mental states getting beneath the sense of ‘I’. i started going on retreats, and on a couple of these had intense experiences: one where i was in deep concentration and ‘saw’ and experienced a mental image of my Self as a Chinese carnival dragon believing itself to be independent of the people forming it below (other images being music from an orchestra or the figurehead on the front of an old ship believing they were independent) and one when i had just come from deep concentration (when i had experienced a ‘fusing’ of external sensory stimulus and internal sensation) and the world and i appeared to be unfolding together. The first of these i considered transformative, it being an experienced ‘realisation’ though ‘I’ was only seen and experienced within this concentrated state. After these i also attended a workshop called ‘who’s behind the mask’, based on Jungian psychology, when i ended up dancing naked with a whole bunch of strangers. The latter just sounds funny now but it was, i think, me recognising i just had to acknowledge the buried parts of myself and let go, for my health and for my spiritual growth.
i joined a Mitra group in Triratna, then dropped out at year two when i felt a potential loss of personal integrity in a planned ceremony publicly professing faith in other people’s dogma which included what i thought of as magical thinking.
At one of my retreats, my teacher/ mentor / guide for the week had mentioned LU, and now seemed the time, post serious career (i am collecting a pension), having some understanding of what i needed to do, and being free to follow this.
Is there a separate entity ‘Self’, ‘me’, ‘I’, at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
No. I don’t see how there ever could have been or could be.
Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts, and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
i have difficulty expressing this from my ‘experience’ that doesn’t also include my thinking, but i will try.
When it starts: i can remember experiencing the battle between ‘I’ and the rest of me from infant school if not before, with a horrible sense of not being control when ‘I’ should have been able to be. So it starts very early, presumably when the brain develops the function of awareness of its own functioning.
What the illusion is: that there is an ‘I’ separate from the natural functioning of the brain and body that is in control and is necessary to keep things running safely.
How it works: this is harder to say, now, and my mind tends to be analytical. It is something to do with the feeling of the location of awareness, i think. Awareness feels held within a self-reflective function. An image came to me during this Dialogue of a sand devil / whirlwind, self-absorbed, believing everything revolves around itself, isolated from its environment. It’s only when awareness can step out of the self-reflective loop that it can see. Or using my previous experienced images, it’s only when the Chinese dragon, the music, or the figurehead can be seen from a different perspective that the illusion can be broken. i understand from a psychological perspective that the ‘Self’ function may be particularly involved in social interaction, which makes sense from my experience of when my ‘Self’ is on highest alert.
How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
As described, ‘i’ have had vivid glimpses of ‘seeing through’ before, so this feels like ‘Ah, there it is, now i can see it’. I’m able to see it in a more stable form, when in normal everyday consciousness. The most obvious change in how it feels is that awareness is not bound up inside, and blinded by, ‘Self’.
There is still ‘selfing’ going on, but I am able to see it happening, have a different perspective to it. i assume these are life-long habits that will die back when no longer continually fuelled. Inside, it is calmer, there is much less chatter, much less drive to do, and to become, something else. There is no ‘echo’ of Self behind my thoughts and actions. There is a subtle shift with a more impersonal sense to awareness, but i’m not sure where that is going at the moment, i’m watching it.
What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
i think i knew i needed someone outside of ‘Me’ to direct / guide, and this allowed ‘Me’ to hand over control. i followed Stafford’s pointing, while also trying to interpret it with what felt right internally.
i think the thing that really helped was with pointing / advice as to what experiential ‘looking’ was like as opposed to my usual analytical working out, and using this new perspective to look at thoughts and sensations that ‘I’ associated with ‘Me’. i also had a couple of occasions in the early hours of the morning looking, when ‘I’ offered ‘Myself’ up to awareness, giving ‘I’ up. Prior to this i had had the thought that ‘I’ was being cornered into having to commit suicide, and i gained reassurance from Stafford and the LU literature about this fear. These occasions resulted in deeply relaxed quiet impersonal spaces that i hadnt experienced before so i think of them as ‘integration’ events.
Describe decision, intention, free will choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
i’m still looking at these and have difficulty describing them from an experience-perspective as opposed to pre-existing understandings.
my mind makes decisions, has intentions, makes choices. It always has, it always will do. my body probably also (together or separate with mind) does this. The whole world works according to laws of cause and effect. Atmospheric changes cause weather and lead to trees blowing in the wind or animals living different lives to accommodate to droughts.
Free will only works if there is a Self to make Free decisions, and if there isn’t then the concept becomes meaningless. Similarly what can ‘I’ be responsible for if ‘I’ doesn’t exist? This does of course make it rather unfair ‘punishing’ people for their decisions / actions, unless it is for their own good or for the good of society.
With regard to describing these from my own experience, i would say that I have held many of these views for a long time. The difference now is that in my experience there isn’t any separate ‘Self’ involved in directing or controlling ‘My’ decisions or actions. These are just happening without the illusion of outside influence.
Anything to add.
What an extraordinary organisation and thank you so much to the organizers, Stafford and other guides for their commitment.
i have many questions about ‘my’ internal process from now, and how it fits, or doesn’t fit, into Buddhist philosophy. i’m feeling slightly puzzled and perplexed about how the world works now, for example what happens to meaning and aspiration, so i’d like the opportunity to explore other people’s experiences and insights.
Thank you once again, i feel i can move on with life now.
