Seeking with playfulness and curiosity

[JonathanR]

Hello Sulochani..

. Something flipped this morning. I was mulling over what you said about 'do thoughts about I make a seperate self appear'. An incident that had happened earlier in the week and triggered hurt in the 'me' came. Suddenly there came an image of this 'depressed me' and 'hurt' trying to stick to it but it couldn't because suddenly there was no 'me'. There was nothing to stick to, just clarity. Suddenly the realisation came there was no one to get hurt. No Claire/Sulochani for hurt to stick to. I couldn’t find anything. It brought feelings of great joy, freedom and gratitude. Just sitting with it for now to see If it is lasting.

Wonderful. Please do let me know how it goes, how things look tomorrow?

. The cup is just here. There is a label of cup, of whiteness, just as there is a label of body,

That's true. I could have been trying to draw, attention to that aspect, the labeling.

But actually I was asking you to notice the experience of whiteness. That's to say, the particular sensation of seeing that colour. Does that clarify this for you? I then asked question s about the experience of whiteness.. Take a look again at what I asked.

Love

Jon

[JonathanR]

Hi Sulochani,

I hope you're well? How is it going?


Love

Jon

[Sulochani]

Dear Jon
Good to hear from you. Sorry I missed yesterday. Just sitting with the whiteness for a bit … So I’ll try and answer the questions.

In general, the experience is of relaxation and peace; with alertness– less sense of striving for something. The space feels clearer. There is a kind of lack of motivation to do some stuff (like clear out a room which had been planned). Things that normally would upset ‘me’ did not yesterday to the same degree. There were still some emotions and thoughts and when an emotion or thought comes and lingers, another thought arises of one step forward, two steps back. And then that also passes.
These are a few questions that I missed from before:

in all this happening, there could also sometimes be thoughts appearing about 'I' or 'me? The question is, do thoughts ABOUT 'I' make a separate self appear?

It seems that thoughts ABOUT I cannot make a self appear. A thought can arise, ‘I’m no good at this’, ‘I don’t belong here’ but then, there is no ‘I’ to hang this onto. So a thought can come and even linger for a while and cause some emotions to arise but they pass. They can’t hang around because they are not based on anything substantial. The cycle of suffering -of being a victim because someone has done something to ‘me’ - is seen more clearly and that brings a sense of freedom. It’s funny and yet so all-consuming when this suffering is felt and experienced. I have read this many times but to actually look and just find spaciousness and no little bumps, grooves or knots feels quite different.

Do thoughts about 'awareness' make awareness appear?

Awareness is just there where there are no thoughts – just a space. A thought about awareness can arise but it can’t make awareness appear. Awareness is still there after the thought passes.

About seeing; here is another experiment. Find a coloured object such as a white cup or an orange. I will talk in terms of the white cup.

Just noticing the white cup in a perfectly ordinary way, no special effort or concentration necessary, (just a little bit of interest); is 'whiteness' separate from the seeing of it?
In the direct experience of whiteness, is there any separation between 'seer', 'seeing' and 'seen' ?

To be honest, not sure if I get what you mean Jon but I’ll share what happens – looking at a small white jug. There’s a sense of an intimate connection with it. Awareness of its different textures of shininess and dullness; where it catches the light, what is in shadow; the slenderness, the elegance, its presence as an article sitting on a wooden table and how the feel of it is different from the wood on which it sits. There is an awareness of sensations in my body with the seeing – a tickling warm feeling from the pelvis to the head-and a feeling of connectedness to what is being seen.
So there is a feeling of separation because we are in different places physically but also a feeling of connection on another level.

Thank you Jon for hanging in here with me!

With love
Sulochani

[JonathanR]

Dear Sulochani

. It seems that thoughts ABOUT I cannot make a self appear. A thought can arise, ‘I’m no good at this’, ‘I don’t belong here’ but then, there is no ‘I’ to hang this onto.

It's good to see this. Yes. It seems that no amount of hunting around will uncover a "separate" entity, or self that is separate from whatever is experienced.

. . A thought can arise, ‘I’m no good at this’, ‘I don’t belong here’ but then, there is no ‘I’ to hang this onto. So a thought can come and even linger for a while and cause some emotions to arise but they pass. They can’t hang around because they are not based on anything substantial. The cycle of suffering -of being a victim because someone has done something to ‘me’ - is seen more clearly and that brings a sense of freedom

Yes. Very true. Thoughts can definitely appear and reference "I" but as you say, there's nothing substantial when the illusion is seen.

Is there any reason why seeing no entity should prevent these thoughts and feelings from appearing though?

What if such thoughts and feelings, rooted in a confused perspective, are actually telling us something? That perhaps some long-held belief and feeling needs looking at, even though there never actually was a separate entity (poor little me) to whom they happened?

Do you feel that It might not be such a good idea to make a habit of bypassing or ignoring such feelings via the intellectualisation that 'there's no me so there's no-one to experience suffering'? (I only mention this because it can sometimes happen) .

. It’s funny and yet so all-consuming when this suffering is felt and experienced. I have read this many times but to actually look and just find spaciousness and no little bumps, grooves or knots feels quite different.

Yes it does.

. To be honest, not sure if I get what you mean Jon but I’ll share what happens – looking at a small white jug.

OK. Ler me explain, because it's not about perceiving a 'separate object' as such. It's not about you and a jug.

It just happens that a lot of crockery is white, But it could easily have been a red cup or an orange or a green bedspread. It's about seeing colour.

It's, about how seeing colour is experienced, regardless of any apparent object to which colour might seem to be a secondary attachment or 'coating' . Forget the idea that coloured things are "things" coated in colour.

Find something with a single colour and simply notice the colour.

I'm looking now at a red cushion but the cushion shape is unimportant . There is a common belief that there is a 'perceiver' (that 'sees'), some thing,or quality, that is 'perceived' ('seen' ) and 'perception' ('seeing').

Right here and now, seeing redness, explore what's happening. Is the experience 'redness' separate from the seeing of it?

Is there an experience of 'awareness perceiving redness' or just redness?

Love

Jon

[Sulochani]

Dear Jon

Is there any reason why seeing no entity should prevent these thoughts and feelings from appearing though?

What if such thoughts and feelings, rooted in a confused perspective, are actually telling us something? That perhaps some long-held belief and feeling needs looking at, even though there never actually was a separate entity (poor little me) to whom they happened?

Do you feel that It might not be such a good idea to make a habit of bypassing or ignoring such feelings via the intellectualisation that 'there's no me so there's no-one to experience suffering'? (I only mention this because it can sometimes happen) .

Thoughts and feelings are still appearing. When they come, I try to allow them to be for as long as they need to be present. The small wounded child appears often and I'm learning to be more present and loving and supportive for that part of my experience. I'll share an example from today. I'd love to hear from your experience how you feel it's best to look at these long held beliefs and feelings.
Today a strong feeling of vulnerability came up. Feelings of worthlessness, not being good enough and feeling isolated were all there. There was a hot coal in the centre of my abdomen. Awareness allowed me to stay with the feeling, offered reassurance to that part of myself, welcomed her, thanked her and danced. With the thanking and the dancing and not trying to wish away the pain but allowing it to stay as long as it wanted to be present, it moved, shifted and released with pain in the throat, a feeling of suffocation and some tears.

Yes, thank you for clarifying. I see that it is about the colour. Today lying on my bed for 30 mins looking at my blue duvet, some experience started to come of awareness rather than focus on an outside object. I'll keep exploring.

With love and thanks Jon
Sulochani

[JonathanR]

Dear, Sulochani

. Thoughts and feelings are still appearing. When they come, I try to allow them to be for as long as they need to be present

Good idea, though it could be asked who, or what, 'does' this allowing?

But yes, it's good to notice what thoughts and feelings appear.

. The small wounded child appears often and I'm learning to be more present and loving and supportive for that part of my experience. I'll share an example from today. I'd love to hear from your experience how you feel it's best to look at these long held beliefs and feelings.
Today a strong feeling of vulnerability came up. Feelings of worthlessness, not being good enough and feeling isolated were all there. There was a hot coal in the centre of my abdomen. Awareness allowed me to stay with the feeling, offered reassurance to that part of myself, welcomed her, thanked her and danced. With the thanking and the dancing and not trying to wish away the pain but allowing it to stay as long as it wanted to be present, it moved, shifted and released with pain in the throat, a feeling of suffocation and some tears.[

I can relate to all of this, quite closely. In fact very closely. I cannot say how best to look at these long held beliefs,. Some of them will sinply tend to become conscious. For myself (so to speak) I've found that it's a good idea to be like a cat with its ears forward, inquisitive, noticing what appears. It may not be necessary to 'do' very much except not run away or resist uncomfortable feelings. However, sometomes resistance does happen, in which case its not a good idea to resist the resistance but again, to notice that that is what is going on. So I'd say, generally 'ears foreward" is helpful, inquisitive, willing to explore. If we are like a scared cat whose ears are pulled back it's just less likely that we will notice what is revealing its self..There,are many different ways to explore behaviour patterns and emotional patterns.

. Yes, thank you for clarifying. I see that it is about the colour. Today lying on my bed for 30 mins looking at my blue duvet, some experience started to come of awareness rather than focus on an outside object. I'll keep exploring.

Good. Yes, try it a few times but don't make it into a chore. No need to stare very hard.

Love

Jon

[Sulochani]

Dear Jon
Thank you for your honest sharing and advice

good idea to be like a cat with its ears forward, inquisitive, noticing what appears

.

It is a blessing when thoughts and emotions arise and there is the opportunity to see them. At some point in the process, there is a feeling that there is space for whatever. And yes certainly resistance ...and gratefulness that sometimes the resistance is now seen and acknowledged.

Very busy today with the practical stuff of moving rooms, decorating and working. So apologies for a short response. Still here.

With love
Sulochani

[Sulochani]

Dear Jon

Just to share with you my experience of being with colour today.
First focus on the green (grass) as external object, then comes a feeling of impatience to ‘get something’. Then, relaxation, almost like a feeling of drawing in of energy to settling into self and seeing the colour as something out there. Almost a 3D image.
A desire comes to give up and do something else.
Noticing all sounds around like the sphere of awareness is expanding beyond just the green grass and seeing. A loss of focus in the eyes and an awareness not just of that one sense of seeing but also hearing the birds – and all in like the same bubble. Relaxation in the body and a strange indescribable feeling where awareness of not just the green but a fuzziness in which other objects are in my view also in a fuzzy way - a point where everything goes blurred , like a film over everything, and viewing body and environment from a distance. Then blink and green, grass, window all back in vision, and a centering in the body.

A thought arises that this is not separate. The thought is trying to convince 'someone', as if it has the power to dictate the experience. A thought that if I simply sit here and stare something will change in my perception. A question thought ‘is there a me viewing?’ and No can’t locate her
So what is happening?
Still the thought it is green there and body here.
Again a thought all of this is one, as if thought can convince ‘someone’ of this again.
Feeling like being on the edge of perceiving all in one field.
And then a breathe and a return to seeing grass window, being in body looking out the eyes.
Thoughts come take me elsewhere and then an awareness about the thoughts and back to green, grass, window…

I keep exploring.

With love
Sulochani

[Sulochani]

Dear Jon
I watched your video interview with Luchana. Although I come from Ireland originally, I now live in BG and know Luchana. I guessed it was you from the name and at first, I wasn't sure whether I should watch it or not :) It was lovely to see you in person and to hear your story. Thank you for sharing.

Love
Sulochani

[JonathanR]

Hello Sulochani

I'm glad you liked the video. No worries. How great that you know Luchana 😊

Sorry to say this but it is very late here tonight, so I will post tomorrow.

Love

Jon

[Sulochani]

Dear Jon
I feel to communicate something of my experience today because the feeling persists that the penny is not dropping and what to do from here, And also a reminder comes that this is not something to be pushed, that it will come when ready.

In silent meditation today, I was experiencing a tension. So many thoughts about viewing/seeing – 'I should be able to see this', then a thought that 'I am putting pressure', then 'there is no-one to put pressure', 'pressure is counterproductive' etc. At times, there were moments that it seemed that a thought was able to say ‘Stop, these are all thoughts which are bringing tension. Relax’ and with that came a sense of peace and relaxation in the body. This brings some confusion because it feels in this moment that the thoughts have some control over themselves in being able to stop and bring some calmness. So although at times it seems obvious that thoughts just pop up out of being, at other times they seem to be having whole discussions with themselves. At some point, a realisation (not sure if it is another thought) comes that this is all thought.

Thoughts and feelings are still appearing. When they come, I try to allow them to be for as long as they need to be present
Good idea, though it could be asked who, or what, 'does' this allowing?

Yes, in one sense they are just there. But there seems to be come choice Jon in giving feelings space; choosing to be with them, to be present for the energy as it moves through. Does that mean that there is seperate self choosing? Or choosing just happens in that moment, just like thinking, just like relaxing. This feels a bit like engaging my head to try to understand something that just happens. It feels muddling to try and explain, express!

Any pointers would be welcome.

Thank you.

With love
Sulochani

[JonathanR]

Hi Sulochani

. I feel to communicate something of my experience today because the feeling persists that the penny is not dropping and what to do from here,

That's good. Great. And remember, 'penny dropping' is a metaphor.

. This brings some confusion because it feels in this moment that the thoughts have some control over themselves in being able to stop and bring some calmness. So although at times it seems obvious that thoughts just pop up out of being, at other times they seem to be having whole discussions with themselves.

It can certainly seem so, can't it?

is it that thoughts control themselves? It's worth looking at.

Is it that thoughts quieten down with the relative calm of meditation?

What if it isn't thoughts that 'stop themselves'? What if calmness is what happens when there are fewer words?

Could thoughts also be taking credit for what has already started to happen (calm, peace), thus creating an illusion that they are 'controlling' something?

. But there seems to be come choice Jon in giving feelings space; choosing to be with them, to be present for the energy as it moves through

Giving space to feelings and being present to energy happens (when it does). Is that fair to say?

It appears that a choice has been made and certainly there can be thoughts ABOUT thoughts 'choosing or controling' . But does that mean that thoughts make things happen? Can a thought put on a pair of shoes?

Love

Jon

[Sulochani]

Hi Jon

It appears that a choice has been made and certainly there can be thoughts ABOUT thoughts 'choosing or controling' . But does that mean that thoughts make things happen? Can a thought put on a pair of shoes?

Sitting here now with in calmness, it seems so obvious.
It's like there is a movement of energy towards something, eg working in the garden, then the thought comes after the movement of energy or almost simultaneously with the movement (which I don't know) so the thought appears to have created the movement. In reality the movement just happens and can be just lived. The thought may come to label it or not but the movement is just happening. Seems so simple now but in a thick fog of thought upon thought then this reality is not seen because of the preoccupation with the thoughts.

is it that thoughts control themselves? It's worth looking at.

taking time to investigate this Jon.

Could thoughts also be taking credit for what has already started to happen (calm, peace), thus creating an illusion that they are 'controlling' something?

How can the thoughts take credit? It makes it sound like they have a consciousness of their own?

With love and thanks
Sulochani

[Sulochani]

Hi Jon
And something just came to add to the earlier response.

is it that thoughts control themselves? It's worth looking at.

Also about thoughts - I don't know where they come from or what controls them. Do they come from being? Some seem to be related in some way to past experience and most of the time they seem to be unique to this body-mind named Sulochani/Claire. Sometimes it can seem that thoughts come up simultaneously with another, eg I was just thinking that - with my husband. That's likes to come more from a shared sense of being and again the thought claims it. Thoughts seem to be claiming a lot for which they are not responsible. Why!

Is it that thoughts quieten down with the relative calm of meditation?

Yes in the presence of being, thoughts can be there somehow, pitter patter but they don't run the show.

Giving space to feelings and being present to energy happens (when it does). Is that fair to say?

yes like above, in the presence of being. Whatever is there just is and moves in its presence.

With love
Sulochani

[JonathanR]

Dear Sulochani

My apologies, for not writing yesterday. I was rather busy with things.

. Could thoughts also be taking credit for what has already started to happen (calm, peace), thus creating an illusion that they are 'controlling' something?

How can the thoughts take credit? It makes it sound like they have a consciousness of their own?

I don't mean that there is an entity behind thoughts, merely asking the question 'is it possible that some thoughts crop up in the mix that happen to refer to something' controlling'. Assumption-type thoughts?

. Thoughts seem to be claiming a lot for which they are not responsible. Why!

You're doing some great investigating here. Thoughts do claim a lot! I'm not sure about 'why' but it's particularly interesting that they do.

What if thoughts are creating a 'story of mev, like a running narrative? A series of announcements ABOUT ' me', without there being an actual object 'me', at, all?

Love

Jon