Hi PK,
Hope you're doing ok with the lockdown. Sorry not to reply sooner. I've been distracted.
The imagined sound of the bell is just not even close to real. I can imagine the subtle vibration in my skull and around my nose, but its quite effortfull.
The actual sound is full and resonant. It's present, real alive even. It's also sensory, embodied, just there without effort.
The difference is quite stark and obvious. The quality totally different.
Thanks, Rob
Woodland Flowers
Re: Woodland Flowers
HI Rob
Yes ok here so far thanks.
Taste, smell and touch.
Imagine an orange or a similarly strong tasting fruit. Go through the same 3 steps and describe these 3 senses fully also.
x PK
Yes ok here so far thanks.
great noticingThe difference is quite stark and obvious. The quality totally different.
Taste, smell and touch.
Imagine an orange or a similarly strong tasting fruit. Go through the same 3 steps and describe these 3 senses fully also.
x PK
Re: Woodland Flowers
I'm actually doing this with my tea this morning before my 1st client.
Imagined tea drinking is not satisfying. There is very little pleasure in it. Actually the pleasure is only imagined. The wetness in the throat, for example, as a measure of satisfaction but it's fleeting. The smell is dull.
Actually drinking tea, to be precise green tea, brings a subtlety and nuance the flavour. It's not exploding, but it is full and nuanced. Smell and taste scene intimately linked. There is so much more to notice.
The experience of thoughts are so different to the experience of life. Valid but very different to lived life, or sensed life.
And this links quite closely to a dream I had last night where a crowd of people were chanting at me to act act act. Stop hesitating and act! Seems related.
Many thanks, Rob
Imagined tea drinking is not satisfying. There is very little pleasure in it. Actually the pleasure is only imagined. The wetness in the throat, for example, as a measure of satisfaction but it's fleeting. The smell is dull.
Actually drinking tea, to be precise green tea, brings a subtlety and nuance the flavour. It's not exploding, but it is full and nuanced. Smell and taste scene intimately linked. There is so much more to notice.
The experience of thoughts are so different to the experience of life. Valid but very different to lived life, or sensed life.
And this links quite closely to a dream I had last night where a crowd of people were chanting at me to act act act. Stop hesitating and act! Seems related.
Many thanks, Rob
Re: Woodland Flowers
Morning Rob
We are aiming here at awareness of experience without overlay of interpretation and personal assumptions etc. and seeing things in themselves without views and preconceived ideas as in:
In the seen, only the seen. In the heard, only the heard etc.
Touch
Imagine lying down on the floor and tell me what sensations come up in your mind and report back. Remember not to mention body parts like ‘heel’ for instance just the sensations in themselves.
Then lie down, feel the pressure/weight/sensations of contact with the floor and report back as fully as possible
xx
greatThe experience of thoughts are so different to the experience of life.
We are aiming here at awareness of experience without overlay of interpretation and personal assumptions etc. and seeing things in themselves without views and preconceived ideas as in:
In the seen, only the seen. In the heard, only the heard etc.
Touch
Imagine lying down on the floor and tell me what sensations come up in your mind and report back. Remember not to mention body parts like ‘heel’ for instance just the sensations in themselves.
Then lie down, feel the pressure/weight/sensations of contact with the floor and report back as fully as possible
xx
Re: Woodland Flowers
Thank you PK.
I imagine lying down on the floor feels restful, but I don't feel much rest. For a moment there my muscles relaxed, a sort of dropping feeling. The feeling is lightness with no relief. There is an image of my body lying down but I don't have the body sensations.
Lying on the floor I sense pressure points, meeting places. hard not to mention body parts. there is a heaviness and letting go. A sense of rest, ease. Some joints felt some slight discomfort as the muscles let go.
The difference is the image has a few effects in the body, whereas the body sensations were very tangible, immediate, present. The image is disembodied, empty of sensation. The body feels alive on the floor. Contact points sense weight.
Rob
I imagine lying down on the floor feels restful, but I don't feel much rest. For a moment there my muscles relaxed, a sort of dropping feeling. The feeling is lightness with no relief. There is an image of my body lying down but I don't have the body sensations.
Lying on the floor I sense pressure points, meeting places. hard not to mention body parts. there is a heaviness and letting go. A sense of rest, ease. Some joints felt some slight discomfort as the muscles let go.
The difference is the image has a few effects in the body, whereas the body sensations were very tangible, immediate, present. The image is disembodied, empty of sensation. The body feels alive on the floor. Contact points sense weight.
Rob
Re: Woodland Flowers
Hi Rob
Imagine crossing your legs. Now cross them. Tell me the imagined sensations and then the actual ones and the difference
Similarly, you could imagine walking, then walk.
Imagine pinching your skin, then pinch …
What do you notice in these experiments? Is there a difference between tactile experience and mental activity about a tactile experience? Describe the direct sensations of each and the differences please. Take your time and savour the experiences.
xx
this is great. sadhu!The difference is the image has a few effects in the body, whereas the body sensations were very tangible, immediate, present. The image is disembodied, empty of sensation. The body feels alive on the floor.
Imagine crossing your legs. Now cross them. Tell me the imagined sensations and then the actual ones and the difference
Similarly, you could imagine walking, then walk.
Imagine pinching your skin, then pinch …
What do you notice in these experiments? Is there a difference between tactile experience and mental activity about a tactile experience? Describe the direct sensations of each and the differences please. Take your time and savour the experiences.
xx
Re: Woodland Flowers
Hi PK
It's hard to come up with more words to describe the differences. I guess the point is more the experience than the words.
There is no filter in DE. Imagination is a bit blurred for me, so to speak. Words like "suchness" speak to DE. The word immediacy. It just is. Thinking is just a thought. Physiological things do happen based on thoughts, but the actual experience is of a different order, or a different kind. A thought is a thought. A sensation is a sensation. Words are thoughts, which seems to be why only poetry can get anywhere near describing it.
There is a certain satisfaction in DE. There is pleasure, even in the challenging experience. All experience feels alive, which is refreshing, because thinking about experience is wholly unsatisfying.
It's hard to come up with more words to describe the differences. I guess the point is more the experience than the words.
There is no filter in DE. Imagination is a bit blurred for me, so to speak. Words like "suchness" speak to DE. The word immediacy. It just is. Thinking is just a thought. Physiological things do happen based on thoughts, but the actual experience is of a different order, or a different kind. A thought is a thought. A sensation is a sensation. Words are thoughts, which seems to be why only poetry can get anywhere near describing it.
There is a certain satisfaction in DE. There is pleasure, even in the challenging experience. All experience feels alive, which is refreshing, because thinking about experience is wholly unsatisfying.
Re: Woodland Flowers
Great Rob, lovely observations, spot on!
1. Close your eyes and imagine the size and shape of your left foot.? how do you experience it? Is there a visual memory/ mental image of the foot? Describe what comes to mind.
2. Now still with eyes closed, tune in purely with the directly experienced physical sensations that you had before. Do the actual sensations have the same size and shape as the image of your foot? Describe your foot purely in DE.
What difference do you notice between 1 and 2?
xx
1. Close your eyes and imagine the size and shape of your left foot.? how do you experience it? Is there a visual memory/ mental image of the foot? Describe what comes to mind.
2. Now still with eyes closed, tune in purely with the directly experienced physical sensations that you had before. Do the actual sensations have the same size and shape as the image of your foot? Describe your foot purely in DE.
What difference do you notice between 1 and 2?
xx
Re: Woodland Flowers
Ok. I;m not doing very well at keeping up. Sorry.
1. I imagine my foot being sort of pale pink, quite long and thin5 toes of assorted sizes. wider and flatter at the front, rounded and taller at the back.
2. I feel tingles, warmth. Its impossible to tell if it has a partciular size or shape. My mind had an image of s supernova weirdly. Maybe its shaped like that? This is the first time I've noticed it feels a bit like infinite possibility. It feels like energy, throbbing, But the main sense is being of a different dimension than 3d.
The difference then is that it has no fixed shape or colour. It is hard not to keep coming back to the image and placing it in space, but when I can let go of that habit, it feels just like warm space.
Many thanks, Rob
1. I imagine my foot being sort of pale pink, quite long and thin5 toes of assorted sizes. wider and flatter at the front, rounded and taller at the back.
2. I feel tingles, warmth. Its impossible to tell if it has a partciular size or shape. My mind had an image of s supernova weirdly. Maybe its shaped like that? This is the first time I've noticed it feels a bit like infinite possibility. It feels like energy, throbbing, But the main sense is being of a different dimension than 3d.
The difference then is that it has no fixed shape or colour. It is hard not to keep coming back to the image and placing it in space, but when I can let go of that habit, it feels just like warm space.
Many thanks, Rob
Re: Woodland Flowers
Hi Rob
People seem to generally be finding this stuff hard to keep up with at the moment. Let me know if you'd like a break.
Try this also.
Close your eyes and feel the sensations of your bottom on the chair or sofa in DE. Can you actually discern where the boundary of your body meets the chair or sofa? Or does the boundary exist merely as an idea? Describe the sensations of sitting on the chair.
xx
People seem to generally be finding this stuff hard to keep up with at the moment. Let me know if you'd like a break.
that's lovely to readThe difference then is that it has no fixed shape or colour. It is hard not to keep coming back to the image and placing it in space, but when I can let go of that habit, it feels just like warm
Try this also.
Close your eyes and feel the sensations of your bottom on the chair or sofa in DE. Can you actually discern where the boundary of your body meets the chair or sofa? Or does the boundary exist merely as an idea? Describe the sensations of sitting on the chair.
xx
Re: Woodland Flowers
Hi,
Ok. Thanks.
There is an experience there. A sense I would call warmth and pressure. Boundaries are not things that I experience however. Outside the sense of site I don't percieve something I could call a boundary. Sensations of touch change in the area I think of as back of leg or buttocks. As I said warmth, pressure, tingling, buzzing. My imaginal sense can come in too, but that's a different story. Experience is more like a cloud with different tones to it.
Thanks again, Rob
Ok. Thanks.
There is an experience there. A sense I would call warmth and pressure. Boundaries are not things that I experience however. Outside the sense of site I don't percieve something I could call a boundary. Sensations of touch change in the area I think of as back of leg or buttocks. As I said warmth, pressure, tingling, buzzing. My imaginal sense can come in too, but that's a different story. Experience is more like a cloud with different tones to it.
Thanks again, Rob
Re: Woodland Flowers
Lovely looking, Rob, great
This exercise has a dual purpose. Firstly, to become aware of each and every though as they appear. Secondly, the careful looking for the gap is an example of how carefully to look when looking for the ‘separate self’.
Here is a step-by-step description of how to look at thoughts. First thing is to sit for at least 10-15 minutes quietly somewhere, several times throughout your day. Close your eyes and just notice thoughts. Don’t engage with any thought, just notice them.
1. Notice the current thought that is present.
Like when you sit observing the body, a thought might arise “this is my feet” or “here is a pain” or “my breathing is too quick” or “I am bored with this exercise” or “I have better things to do” or any sorts of thoughts.
2. This thought will pass and another thought will come. So just observe this thought passing.
3. Then wait for the next thought to come.
4. When the next thought is present, just notice it, and see how it passes.
5. Then wait for the next thought to come.
6. Repeat #4 and #5 many-many times.
Between the 2 thoughts there is a gap. It can be very short or subtle, just a second or a few seconds before the next thought come in.
This is how to look at thoughts:-
Looking how they come and go, and
Observing the short gap between them.
Noticing how the current thought is passing.
And waiting for the next thought to come.
Please do the following exercise:
Throughout your waking day, try to observe the gap between thoughts as often as possible. It can be done by noticing that ‘thinking’ is happening right now, then stop and just simply wait for the next thought to come. In the ‘waiting’ there is a gap between two thoughts.
Let me know how you go.
keep well xx
This exercise has a dual purpose. Firstly, to become aware of each and every though as they appear. Secondly, the careful looking for the gap is an example of how carefully to look when looking for the ‘separate self’.
Here is a step-by-step description of how to look at thoughts. First thing is to sit for at least 10-15 minutes quietly somewhere, several times throughout your day. Close your eyes and just notice thoughts. Don’t engage with any thought, just notice them.
1. Notice the current thought that is present.
Like when you sit observing the body, a thought might arise “this is my feet” or “here is a pain” or “my breathing is too quick” or “I am bored with this exercise” or “I have better things to do” or any sorts of thoughts.
2. This thought will pass and another thought will come. So just observe this thought passing.
3. Then wait for the next thought to come.
4. When the next thought is present, just notice it, and see how it passes.
5. Then wait for the next thought to come.
6. Repeat #4 and #5 many-many times.
Between the 2 thoughts there is a gap. It can be very short or subtle, just a second or a few seconds before the next thought come in.
This is how to look at thoughts:-
Looking how they come and go, and
Observing the short gap between them.
Noticing how the current thought is passing.
And waiting for the next thought to come.
Please do the following exercise:
Throughout your waking day, try to observe the gap between thoughts as often as possible. It can be done by noticing that ‘thinking’ is happening right now, then stop and just simply wait for the next thought to come. In the ‘waiting’ there is a gap between two thoughts.
Let me know how you go.
keep well xx
Re: Woodland Flowers
This is a bit more involved. I'll focus on it during today....
Re: Woodland Flowers
ok
Let me know if you're getting stuck
x
Let me know if you're getting stuck
x
Re: Woodland Flowers
So, I've given it a good go.Thanks for your patience.
Mostly I've noticed the quality of thoughts. Very ephemeral, a bit like smoke in that they cloud other experience often but have no noticeable substance.There is usually some emotion, however light, attached to them, or co-arising with them. There also seems to be layers of mental disturbance, like waves all the way down to ripples on water. gross propancha, down to subtle images and inclinations of mind.
When no thoughts are around I feel a lot of ease, It's that experience you might call "just this". The water is still. Moments with no stories or commentary about sensory experience. A few little glimpses of something like this...
There are today's thoughts. Thanks
Mostly I've noticed the quality of thoughts. Very ephemeral, a bit like smoke in that they cloud other experience often but have no noticeable substance.There is usually some emotion, however light, attached to them, or co-arising with them. There also seems to be layers of mental disturbance, like waves all the way down to ripples on water. gross propancha, down to subtle images and inclinations of mind.
When no thoughts are around I feel a lot of ease, It's that experience you might call "just this". The water is still. Moments with no stories or commentary about sensory experience. A few little glimpses of something like this...
There are today's thoughts. Thanks
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