Me vs. Reality

[mesmer]

Floris friend... will respond soon. Life circumstances still very challenging here. Thank you for your patience, kindness and continued guidance. Will get back to you when possible.

[mesmer]

who is that "me" that remains to make that judgement?", well, you tell me, what (or who) is it? Can you find a me making a judgement? Is there still an identity woven around the idea of a "me"?

There is the awareness of habitual identification with thought/experience going on. That is where the ghost of familiar self lives. To say that the awareness of that identification has increased is true... to say that the identification with that has decreased is true. Has identification with that as a practiced default setting been eliminated? I would say not yet. Voice in the head

Well next time you hear someone talking, when you see him/her or don't see him/her, check if you can find a cause for the sound/voice, or if there just seems to be the sound 'floating' there.

Again... returning to the fact that all is encompassed within experience, and within direct experience, a doer is neither necessary, or can be found.

Untensing / deselfing is the process that needs to deepen here.

That surely sounds nice yes. But just to be clear, this forum just wants to bring people the recognition that there is no such thing as a self, this is not the same as the full dissolving of self/untensing/deselfing. What do you say, is there a self? Yes, no, maybe? Is there doubt left?

There is a laziness of thought... is this resistance? Some eagerness to get things right which is distorting self truth. Am at the gate?

who is that "me" that remains to make that judgement?", well, you tell me, what (or who) is it? you find a me making a judgement? Is there still an identity woven around the idea of a "me"?

There is the awareness of habitual identification with thought/experience going on. That is where the ghost of familiar self lives. To say that the awareness of that identification has increased is true... to say that the identification with that has decreased is true. Has identification with that as a practiced default setting been eliminated? I would say not yet. Voice in the head

Well next time you hear someone talking, when you see him/her or don't see him/her, check if you can find a cause for the sound/voice, or if there just seems to be the sound 'floating' there.

Again... returning to the fact that all is encompassed within experience, and within direct experience, a doer is neither necessary, or can be found.

Untensing / deselfing is the process that needs to deepen here.

That surely sounds nice yes. But just to be clear, this forum just wants to bring people the recognition that there is no such thing as a self, this is not the same as the full dissolving of self/untensing/deselfing. What do you say, is there a self? Yes, no, maybe? Is there doubt left?

I'll just ask some questions here to see your response. Yes or no is sufficient if you feel confident. You could also state I don't know, which is equally fine. Of course, you probably have a sense of what you think should be the 'right' answer, but respond with what feels true for you.

Is there a martin/separate self/person?

There is habitual identification with thought / experience still going on. Does that amount to or provide proof of the existence of a real separate self? No.

is what we call the body living life, is it conscious/experiencing?

The body is not separate from experience.

Is the body a vessel containing a soul, or a receiver for life force?

This was my ongoing assumption. I am no longer so sure. The question arises , what is the proof that this is or is absolutely not the case?


•

is there something inside the body (a self) that is living life/experiencing or controlling?

There is the identification with thought / experience that creates the illusion of a controlling entity. Is it real in the material sense? No.


•

Is there an in- and outside to your experience?

I have always operated under this assumption... there is the outside world beyond “my”control, there is inner reaction to outside world within “my” control. The inner / outer distinction with regard to experience seems unnecessary as there is no divide to be found.

Have i shed this inner / outer illusion and replaced it with it all just being experiencing ? Not yet. Not completely. Haven’t given this question much attention... so not yet.

•

is there a controlling center somewhere, for example in what we call the head?

Again... the lingering habitual impression would be yes... the studied reality... would be a no.



•

how does anything happen like the bodies action, or thoughts?

No clue.

[Florisness]

Hi mesmer, no worries on replying later. I'll just see your message come and answer when I can.

So it's getting a little tricker now for me. Because you didn't find a self, or with other words don't experience a separate self, yet somehow still have to notion that maybe one exists. Let's try to work on that.

If there would be a separate self, what would/should it even be? What would it exist out of?
The way I see it, it should have to be alive, here, experiencing, yes? But is such a thing here? Is there a seperate self experiencing? A self that has a life? it should be right here right? Because it's supposed to be what you are, so where is it? Absent? Somewhere else?

Even if there was a seperate self (whatever that would be), if it doesn't exist where you are, then it also can't be you, and thus not even be relevant for you. RIght?
Another question, this one independent of the question of if there is a seperate self- Are you, or can you be, a separate self?

[mesmer]

So it's getting a little tricker now for me. Because you didn't find a self, or with other words don't experience a separate self, yet somehow still have to notion that maybe one exists. Let's try to work on that.

If there would be a separate self, what would/should it even be? What would it exist out of?

This idea that there may be a spirit or soul ... the ghostly life force is pretty strong as an assumption... is this just identification with an idea/ thought. The sense that there is a light or life force. The idea that we are physical manifestations of one larger life force that inhabits all.
This life force animates the material self and we labour under the illusion that we are unique and separate when we are just part of the one thing or a process that is going on... expressing itself as form?

The way I see it, it should have to be alive, here, experiencing, yes?

There is aliveness and experiencing going on... so attaching ownership to this experience is what needs to be seen through?

But is such a thing here? Is there a seperate self experiencing?

There is experiencing. Is there a separate doer of experience? In the earlier exercises there is direct experience with the revelation that no doer is present, This becomes clear with regard to the sensory experience... taste touch smell hearing sight etc.
There is difficulty applying this clear seeing of no doer or self when it comes to thought. This is where the self lives for me i guess... how do i stop identifying with thought?

A self that has a life? it should be right here right? Because it's supposed to be what you are, so where is it? Absent? Somewhere else?

The self is being maintained through identification with thought. Thought seems to be ever present, filtering experience with seemingly unique judgement, commentary etc. This is tough to stop identifying with.

Even if there was a seperate self (whatever that would be), if it doesn't exist where you are, then it also can't be you, and thus not even be relevant for you. RIght?

Thought is what props up this self... need help with that.

Another question, this one independent of the question of if there is a seperate self- Are you, or can you be, a separate self?

A review... feel thick headed that this isn’t sinking in.... the self is constructed out of identifying with thought/experience ...thought seems to float above or be separate from experience ...acting as an observer of experience. How can this be, if thought is not separate from experience. This is where i am trapped... the observer (thought) and the observed (experience).

[Florisness]

Okay I have the sense we've lost each other a little bit now, let's try to get more simple and clear.

This idea that there may be a spirit or soul ... the ghostly life force is pretty strong as an assumption... is this just identification with an idea/ thought. The sense that there is a light or life force. The idea that we are physical manifestations of one larger life force that inhabits all.

Not sure what you mean with ghostly life force. I think life force is a fine word, although it depends on what you mean by it of course. Life force/consciousness/spirit are synonyms for me. You say 'the idea that we are physical manifestations of a ..', okay that would mean you are a physical manifestation, with other words that you are a body. If you close your eyes however, where is there a physical manifestation?

This life force animates the material self and we labour under the illusion that we are unique and separate when we are just part of the one thing or a process that is going on... expressing itself as form?

okay fine. However again what does 'we' mean here? The bodies? Btw, no need to answer that question, let's keep things more experience based and simple now.

There is aliveness and experiencing going on... so attaching ownership to this experience is what needs to be seen through?

No, you don't have to let go of anything. I was just trying to ask if there is a person/seperate self. I'll give an exercise further below to get back to simple.

There is experiencing. Is there a separate doer of experience? In the earlier exercises there is direct experience with the revelation that no doer is present, This becomes clear with regard to the sensory experience... taste touch smell hearing sight etc.
There is difficulty applying this clear seeing of no doer or self when it comes to thought. This is where the self lives for me i guess... how do i stop identifying with thought?

Same as before, no need to try to stop identifying. "this is where the self lives for me I guess" For who? Or rather is there such a 'me'? Does a self really live in thought?

The self is being maintained through identification with thought. Thought seems to be ever present, filtering experience with seemingly unique judgement, commentary etc. This is tough to stop identifying with.

Okay, that's true. But, is this an actual self that is maintained? If you look for this self that is maintained what do you find? It's fine if there is some identity, I only want it to happen that the belief that there is an actual self to be released. That will happen when it's clear there is no such thing.

A review... feel thick headed that this isn’t sinking in.... the self is constructed out of identifying with thought/experience ...thought seems to float above or be separate from experience ...acting as an observer of experience. How can this be, if thought is not separate from experience. This is where i am trapped... the observer (thought) and the observed (experience).

How could thought observe anything or float above experience? Is experience floating above experience or observing another part of experience?

Maybe this helps a little. Go and sit and relax somewhere, perhaps close your eyes. Move attention between 'inside the body' to 'outside the body', and try to get a sense that is it just one space, one whole, one whole experience without an inside or outside, without boundaries 'in' the experience. Maybe it doesn't feel as whole as you would wish it would feel and there is some sense of identity, that's okay, not important for here. The important thing is the recognition it IS a whole thing, one 'thing', or one space, one awareness, whatever word works for you. Now how could we speak of experience being divided between a part that is called a separate self/person and another part that is called outside world including other entities/living beings, etc, if there is no such boundary, no such parts, and experience is one whole?
If there are no boundaries/parts/divisions for you, could we say that you are this 'one space', or 'undivided space', 'one awareness', 'whole life' (im just using different words here)?

Love,

Move the attention outside of the 'body', just to a chosen point in space. Try to describe what is there, what it is. Maybe 'space', or 'awareness' works for you. Now answer/chose if you would describe that spot as being a person/biological entity/mesmer or that it is just space/awareness/whatever word. I think you'll say that that spot is not or can not be called a person. Now choose if that spot is a part of a person/mesmer/biological entity

[Florisness]

oops, the last part after the closing 'Love,' may be ignored, forgot to delete that.

[mesmer]

A most difficult time in life right now friend Floris... experiencing sadness, loss. The generosity of this guidance is a gift. I will respond in time.

[Florisness]

Thank you for your thankfulness always mesmer, I appreciate it and our talk too. I wish you well for in your difficult times, and hope that you can find some time to just simply be with your feelings, or whatever works for you to process them.

Much love,

[mesmer]

Floris... eternal thanks for continued guidance. Will respond to your last post soon.

Want to see truth... sharing what is currently resonating.

What “I” think about an experience is not the actual experience.

Thought is real. But the “me” that can only be found in thought... and because it can only be found in thought, is not real.

I am not and cannot be separate from experience... in other words there is no “I” that can exist separate from experience... i am actually experience... or more accurately there is just experience that i label with “I”

Who is “I” then? A label put on experience.

Stumbling blocks... and questions:

There really seems to be unique experiences within experience... eg. “your” experience differs from “my” experience.

Ok... there is no ownership of experience but....

If there is just experiencing, then shouldn’t all experience be the same? Or is this just multiple interpretations going on within the one experience?

Is this like waves in the ocean? The waves seem unique, and want to say “i am unique!” “That’s me... identifying with a wave...separate and unique!” but it’s all just ocean?

[Florisness]

What “I” think about an experience is not the actual experience.

Good distinction!

Thought is real. But the “me” that can only be found in thought... and because it can only be found in thought, is not real.

Yes. Not quite sure how you mean the 'me' that can only be found in thought. I suppose you might know that 'me' or such are only thoughts, and so of course, not a real me is in thoughts:-)

I am not and cannot be separate from experience... in other words there is no “I” that can exist separate from experience... i am actually experience... or more accurately there is just experience that i label with “I”

Some good thinking there! One suggestion, and this is not from my personal experience but I trust the enlightened masters on this, that there is something before experience which could be called pure consciousness/god/nothingness/the absolute, -or to align it with your terminology- pure experiencing.

There really seems to be unique experiences within experience... eg. “your” experience differs from “my” experience.

Ok... there is no ownership of experience but....

If there is just experiencing, then shouldn’t all experience be the same? Or is this just multiple interpretations going on within the one experience?

Is this like waves in the ocean? The waves seem unique, and want to say “i am unique!” “That’s me... identifying with a wave...separate and unique!” but it’s all just ocean?

yes, a beautiful illustration! Another way to think about it is you can hold only one thought or dream within yourself at the same time, yet the Absolute can hold many dreams (lives) within itself at the same time. The lighter you are, the more 'one' it all will be and the heavier/denser you are, the more separate you'll feel yourself to be

[mesmer]

Heart full of gratitude for this guidance Floris. The experience of grief and suffering that is arising and seems so overwhelming also has background of unexpected peace. Need to have some healing time before further posts. Understand if you need to move on to help others. Forever grateful for this guidance.

[Florisness]

Heart full of gratitude for this guidance Floris.

Thank you too Mesmer/Martin.

The experience of grief and suffering that is arising and seems so overwhelming also has background of unexpected peace. Need to have some healing time before further posts.

I've had of course similar experiences and know it is a hard time for you, with lots of sadness. I hope you have someone to express your grief to, if not feel free to do that with me if you desire.

Wishing you well,
Floris

[mesmer]

Thank you Floris. I know that your role is as a guide and not a therapist. What Is being experienced is the suffering of a loved one. Feeling too much darkness for too long.

The idea that there is a controller in place is presenting itself strongly in this facing the suffering of a loved one. The strong resistance to what is. What is... is the suffering of another. The need to have control over this situation. To change this situation.

Looking to see through this controller.

Some recent notes on this... i guess this is “self” talk in an effort to abandon this belief in a controller...

How “i” feel about the suffering of another or whether i choose to suffer along with a loved one does nothing to alleviate the suffering. The suffering just is, regardless of how i feel about it.

My empathetic suffering does not alleviate the suffering of another.

The i trying to do this... does not exist.

There is the the need for control. This is just thought. The idea i am in control... i can control.

There is no you controlling life.... look at this. Where is the controller?

Helping... is there a helper? Is there helping?

The i that exists only in future....preparing... and past.... all in thought.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS FUTURE. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS I. LOOK.

The sense that i am not seeing... or not LOOKING clearly enough to let this go.

The sense that i need to do more...

I always need to do more....who is this “l” that needs to keep trying? Where is it... what is it made of? Can you find this “I” in reality? LOOK!

Stop being a lazy looker.... LOOK!


Love M.

[mesmer]

Move the attention outside of the 'body', just to a chosen point in space. Try to describe what is there, what it is. Maybe 'space', or 'awareness' works for you. Now answer/chose if you would describe that spot as being a person/biological entity/mesmer or that it is just space/awareness/whatever word. I think you'll say that that spot is not or can not be called a person. Now choose if that spot is a part of a person/mesmer/biological entity

Moving the perception outside the “body” ...for the first time, there is a true sense of no “me” there. So the sense of “me” seems to have location within the body... but awareness placed a short distance away completely eliminates the sense of “me”...

[Florisness]

What Is being experienced is the suffering of a loved one. Feeling too much darkness for too long.

I understand

The idea that there is a controller in place is presenting itself strongly in this facing the suffering of a loved one. The strong resistance to what is. What is... is the suffering of another. The need to have control over this situation. To change this situation.

Looking to see through this controller.

Some recent notes on this... i guess this is “self” talk in an effort to abandon this belief in a controller...

So what are you resisting here exactly? Are you trying to get away from the feelings? What if you would allow all the feelings to come? A good question I've found useful at times was a question/exercise from David R. Hawkins which is to bring your awareness to your feelings and ask 'can I stop resisting these sensations?' and to ignore the thoughts. You might find that not resisting the feelings or sensations will often be much less of a big deal then you thought.

I always need to do more....who is this “l” that needs to keep trying? Where is it... what is it made of? Can you find this “I” in reality? LOOK!

And, did you find such a thing? Or do you feel that it only exists in language?

Are you hoping that an insight that there is no self will alleviate all the things you don't want to feel? I'm thinking that you already might be more clear on this then you think you are, but just have an expectation that an insight should come that will change things all of a sudden? It's often not like that. Are you trying to believe there is no self? If so, you don't need such a belief. You've been increasingly seeing through a bunch of assumptions that could each be considered to be a part of the self.

If you see someone and they have never even questioned their belief in being a person, they just always assumed being one, being a body or being something in the body just like almost everybody. What would you say to him/her (assuming he's asking you about it and you feel like sharing) about it?

Moving the perception outside the “body” ...for the first time, there is a true sense of no “me” there. So the sense of “me” seems to have location within the body... but awareness placed a short distance away completely eliminates the sense of “me”...

Good one. That exercise wasn't written out completely yet, I wanted originally to add to it to then having established a spot that is not me, to then move your awareness around 'in' your experience and then to find that nowhere you would say there is a person, because there isn't. So do you agree that you can find a place in space/experience ("outside the body") where there is only what we could label awareness/space/life, just as any other place in experience, but that you can move your attention/awareness to a place ("inside the body") that feels different then the other spot ("outside the body") which is what you just labeled 'sense of me'? If someone didn't explore this he might call this place in experience -where you said was a 'sense of me'-: me, person, self. But maybe you would tell him that a more accurate description would be not person, self, or me, but 'sense of me', because that is all there is to it?

Love, F.