I feel that I am real

[Ashman247]

How does it feel to see this?
Is there a sense that this body is 'mine' or 'I?'
If so, how does that manifest?

It feels good to see what I saw. In the sense that I can relate to what the ancient texts say about us being infinite .

The body does still feel like mine.

I think it manifest just because it’s what I’ve always thought and it’s what I’m used to. I don’t have any other experience of this body not being “mine” so the lack of reference keeps the belief in place.

If I was to ask you where the self is now, how would you respond

My immediate answer is that the self is “here” but I know that is meaningless.

I am not sure where it is. Or what it is.

[Skygazer74]

Hi,

When looking at the body, and sensations, remember the exercise where we looked at labelling DE - so you can start to experience the body as sensations arising, rather than 'I feel' or 'my sensations.' We looked and could not find the sensor of sensations, this can only ever be found as a thought or assumption. It is the same with the 'owner' of body. We kind of assume body is this constant 'us' but it is a flux and has no lasting element or atom which could be claimed as 'I' by any entity contemplating that flux. The solidity is added by food, and given back, the liquids and heat taken in and given back, air breathed in and out, at what point can any of it be seen as ours and at what point can it be said to be no longer ours? (Try this with a breath)

This exercise might help as well:

Find a comfortable place to sit or lie.
Take in a few deep breaths to settle the dust and then relax for a bit.

Spend only 30 to 60 seconds on each component of this exercise.

Bring your awareness to your entire body - sense it fully, head to toe.
Run your hands down over your torso. Feel the solidity of it.
Now bring your awareness to your feet. Again, feel them. Move them a bit.
Then bring your awareness to your hands. Open and close them.
Bring your awareness to your face - all of it. Touch it with your hand.
Now point your index finger to where "Damian" is located.
Touch the exact location of "Damian".

Answer these questions:

Were you able to find and feel "Damian" in a direct way like the other parts of your body?
Where is it?
What did you find? Something? Anything? Nothing?
What sensations did you feel in your body that identified "Damian” (If any)

Tell me what you experienced and found, by way of direct experience.

[Ashman247]

Were you able to find and feel "Damian" in a direct way like the other parts of your body?
Where is it?
What did you find? Something? Anything? Nothing?
What sensations did you feel in your body that identified "Damian” (If any)

I wasn’t able to find Damian in the same way physically I could locate other parts of my body. However it does feel as if Damian is in my head- behind my eyes. I can see that this is just thought but I still have a strong sense that is where Damian is located.

I found no physical evidence of Damian no colour touch or texture only a sense or thought of him living in my head behind my eyes. However this sense is incredibly strong and even though it contradicts DE I still really believe Damian is in there behind my eyes. There were however no direct sensations that confirmed this Damian- it was all abstract confirmation.

[Skygazer74]

I found no physical evidence of Damian no colour touch or texture only a sense or thought of him living in my head behind my eyes. However this sense is incredibly strong and even though it contradicts DE I still really believe Damian is in there behind my eyes. There were however no direct sensations that confirmed this Damian- it was all abstract confirmation.

Yes I understand this, behind the eyes feels like the location of presence. Presence is there, but self? Lets have a look at it from a different angle:


Let’s say that you have lost your keys and you swear that you left them in your coat. You go to look and check all the pockets - the keys are not there. You swear they must be as that was the last place you remember them. You have a vivid memory of putting them there after you left the house. But when you check they are not there. At this point you can keep believing that the keys are in your pocket, or you can admit you were mistaken. This is just like that. You may see clearly that the self is an illusion but still feel a sense of self - just like the keys. But feeling something to be true and seeing that it is or is not is different. This is why we may find ourselves coming back to your expectations at the start and at the end.


Now, I’d like to ask you to explore this SENSE of self very-very thoroughly. Not by thinking about it, but by FEELING it.

Keep the focus of attention on the sense of self and inquire:-

Does the sense of self have a location?
Does the sense of self have a shape or a size?
Does the sense of self say or communicate anything?
If the answer is yes, how does the sense do this exactly?
Does the sense of self have any characteristics or attributes?
What is the sense of self ‘made of’? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Thought?

[Ashman247]

I appreciate the apology about the keys being lost and insisting they are where I thought I put them.

Because things feel the same as thy have always done it is difficult for the mind to accept any realisation has happened.

Does the sense of self have a location?
Does the sense of self have a shape or a size?
Does the sense of self say or communicate anything?
If the answer is yes, how does the sense do this exactly?
Does the sense of self have any characteristics or attributes?
What is the sense of self ‘made of’? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Thought?

In doing the exercises I have seen that location of the sense of self comes with the mind. When I realise that ‘I’ is simply a thought then I can see that the sense of ‘I’ being inside me is also a thought. In other words it feels like the sense of self does have a location which is inside me. However I can see that the perception of ‘I’ being inside me is simply a thought- I think it feels like ‘I’ is inside me but I’m just thinking that- I’m giving meaning and life to concepts of location and concluding ‘I’ is inside but that’s just thought .

I would have before said that the sense of self seems to take the shape of a human body. But now I can see that any sense of shape is simply thought. Without the thought about what the sense of self is shaped as I cannot identify any shape for my sense of self.

The only thing the sense of self seemed to communicate was this idea “I am Damian”. But after this enquiry I can see cleary that this so called communication is just a thought. Apart from thought I experience no communication from the sense of self.

The sense of self has no fixed characteristics or attributes. The ones I subscribe to it are all thoughts. There in fact is no evidence of any self outside of thought. The glimpse only lasts a second and I seem to fall back into the belief of a sense of self. But without thoughts I experience no evidence of any self. There is only experience and a pervasive thought about an experiencer.

[Ashman247]

I appreciate the apology about the keys being lost and insisting they are where I thought I put them.

That should say analogy not apology!!! Damn autocorrect!

Because things feel the same as thy have always done it is difficult for the mind to accept any realisation has happened.

Does the sense of self have a location?
Does the sense of self have a shape or a size?
Does the sense of self say or communicate anything?
If the answer is yes, how does the sense do this exactly?
Does the sense of self have any characteristics or attributes?
What is the sense of self ‘made of’? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Thought?

In doing the exercises I have seen that location of the sense of self comes with the mind. When I realise that ‘I’ is simply a thought then I can see that the sense of ‘I’ being inside me is also a thought. In other words it feels like the sense of self does have a location which is inside me. However I can see that the perception of ‘I’ being inside me is simply a thought- I think it feels like ‘I’ is inside me but I’m just thinking that- I’m giving meaning and life to concepts of location and concluding ‘I’ is inside but that’s just thought .

I would have before said that the sense of self seems to take the shape of a human body. But now I can see that any sense of shape is simply thought. Without the thought about what the sense of self is shaped as I cannot identify any shape for my sense of self.

The only thing the sense of self seemed to communicate was this idea “I am Damian”. But after this enquiry I can see cleary that this so called communication is just a thought. Apart from thought I experience no communication from the sense of self.

The sense of self has no fixed characteristics or attributes. The ones I subscribe to it are all thoughts. There in fact is no evidence of any self outside of thought. The glimpse only lasts a second and I seem to fall back into the belief of a sense of self. But without thoughts I experience no evidence of any self. There is only experience and a pervasive thought about an experiencer.

[Ashman247]

Yes I understand this, behind the eyes feels like the location of presence. Presence is there, but self? Lets have a look at it from a different angle:

Are you saying presence and self are different? How would you describe the difference ?

[Ashman247]

Hi Nic,

Just checking I didn’t miss a reply from you somehow.

Thanks!

Damian

[Skygazer74]

Hi Damian,


My Apologies, I missed a reply somehow, and have been hard at work so forgot to check!

The sense of self has no fixed characteristics or attributes. The ones I subscribe to it are all thoughts. There in fact is no evidence of any self outside of thought. The glimpse only lasts a second and I seem to fall back into the belief of a sense of self. But without thoughts I experience no evidence of any self. There is only experience and a pervasive thought about an experiencer.

Yes this is it exactly - so what happens when you fall back into belief? It seems clear now that it is just a thought?

Are you saying presence and self are different? How would you describe the difference ?

Yes, one is there and can be found. Just like with looking and hearing and sensing and thinking - can you find an owner of awareness or presence? Can you find the split between one who is being aware and what one is being aware of?


Best wishes,

Nic

[Ashman247]

Yes this is it exactly - so what happens when you fall back into belief? It seems clear now that it is just a thought?

The thought is so strong it’s like it won’t let go of me. It’s almost like I don’t know how to think without it. I don’t have a good foundation without the sense of I I experience confusion when. see it is not there.

Yes, one is there and can be found. Just like with looking and hearing and sensing and thinking - can you find an owner of awareness or presence? Can you find the split between one who is being aware and what one is being aware of?

I find no split, but again I struggle with meaning for this. The observer and the observed are the same? What does this mean for my relationships with other people. For example, are all of my friends and family not real if I am the same as them. Here is where the confusion is setting in.

I guess the question I am asking is “who am I without my I thought?” And who or what is everyone else?

[Skygazer74]

I find no split, but again I struggle with meaning for this. The observer and the observed are the same? What does this mean for my relationships with other people. For example, are all of my friends and family not real if I am the same as them. Here is where the confusion is setting in.

I guess the question I am asking is “who am I without my I thought?” And who or what is everyone else?

I had a similar set of thoughts - its best to simply recognise that the mind is defending this illusion because there is identification and a sense of threat. There are still beings, there are still thoughts - there just isn't a separate or inherent self. Best not to worry too much about others right now, but I assure you easier relationships and a sense of love and solidarity characterise the other side. It is like the God question, and I recommend parking these larger questions and simply doing the looking. There will be times when it seems difficult or confusing, but if you keep looking for it sooner or later it must be accepted that there is nothing there. Remember - the mind cant think this one through or work it out, the mind seems to try and obstruct the seeing, but the truth lies in looking into DE.

The thought is so strong

it’s like it won’t let go of me

. It’s almost like I don’t know how to think without it. I don’t have a good foundation without the sense of I I experience confusion when. see it is not there.

It sounds as if you feel this thought is somehow permanent or solid, can you look again at thoughts, and watch them arising and passing. If there is a seemingly solid I thought, does that thought actually refer to anything?

When you meditate, are you familiar with that wider space of awareness in which thought arises and passes? Can a thought be strong? Can one be stronger than another?

it’s like it won’t let go of me

Exactly. Yet there is no me to let go of! If a thought has you - and can't let go, how does it have you? What does it have?

It sounds like there is some confusion and frustration - how are you doing? I think you are doing well, the mind is simply making a case for what it thinks is true.

Would some meditation help? If the mind is the size of thought, thought is all powerful and all consuming, but like in those moments in meditation, if mind expands into the boundless space of awareness, thought loses all power, like a tiny gust of wind in infinite space...

[Ashman247]

If there is a seemingly solid I thought, does that thought actually refer to anything?

I can see that any I thought comes and goes. On closer looking I can see that even the persistent thought that I am experiencing something is still a thought. I can see that the thought “I” is so pervasive that it masquerades as an observer as something different than an “I” belief.

When you meditate, are you familiar with that wider space of awareness in which thought arises and passes? Can a thought be strong? Can one be stronger than another?

Yes I am familiar with that space. It seems that the thoughts I experience repeat and seem to be one thought. So the thought that I am experiencing a self seems to be one thought but really it is a stream of thought that is pervasive and repetitive.

Exactly. Yet there is no me to let go of! If a thought has you - and can't let go, how does it have you? What does it have?

Right , a thought doesn’t have me, it’s just a thought that something has me which is being clung to and believed (presumably just by another thought)

It sounds like there is some confusion and frustration - how are you doing? I think you are doing well, the mind is simply making a case for what it thinks is true.

Yes I am doing ok, thanks for asking. Although I think I am seeing clearly the mind can’t make sense of it and give it meaning and purpose and I feel a bit stuck. But like you said it’s a defence mechanism.

Would some meditation help? If the mind is the size of thought, thought is all powerful and all consuming, but like in those moments in meditation, if mind expands into the boundless space of awareness, thought loses all power, like a tiny gust of wind in infinite space.

Yes I will meditate and watch thoughts , I am beginning to see they are all thoughts even the ones that claim to be some sort of observer.

[Skygazer74]

I can see that any I thought comes and goes. On closer looking I can see that even the persistent thought that I am experiencing something is still a thought. I can see that the thought “I” is so pervasive that it masquerades as an observer as something different than an “I” belief.

Nice. So if you remember the seeing exercise, where we looked for and couldn't find the seer, now you need to apply that looking to thoughts, both content and thinker of them. It is like a hunt, for this illusion and where it is assumed, until you have looked everywhere to see it doesn't exist.

It seems that the thoughts I experience repeat and seem to be one thought. So the thought that I am experiencing a self seems to be one thought but really it is a stream of thought that is pervasive and repetitive.

Exactly. Repetition over time give that self thought weight or validity. If there is a frequent thought describing reality, constructing a self or describing that self as this or that (eg I am not good enough) it becomes sort of real. To see, as you are, that these thoughts create our experience, but do not need to, is freedom.

Right , a thought doesn’t have me, it’s just a thought that something has me which is being clung to and believed (presumably just by another thought)

Spot on.

Yes I am doing ok, thanks for asking. Although I think I am seeing clearly the mind can’t make sense of it and give it meaning and purpose and I feel a bit stuck. But like you said it’s a defence mechanism.

Good, and if it does feel heavy you could try some loving kindness meditation to stay positive and hold this in compassion. The suffering created by the separate self, and the confusion in its unravelling need to be met with love. In a way the mind cannot make sense of it, and has to open into a more expanded kind of mind that is more like DE and pure awareness than the thinking mind. Its that old thing that a problem cannot be solved at the level of consciousness at which it is created, and so letting the mind open out and reveal its more expanded ground is important.

Can you say a bit more about what you mean about the mind giving it meaning and purpose - do you mean giving the self meaning, or giving the clear seeing meaning? :)


I think it would be good to sit with this, try some meditation, and keep looking at thought a little longer before rushing onto the next thing. What do you think? If it feels right try the looking and let me know how it goes?

Look again at thoughts arising and passing in the space of awareness, and look for the thinker. Look at whether what they describe or assume can be found, and what about those thoughts makes them seem real?

Best wishes,

Nic

[Ashman247]

Nice. So if you remember the seeing exercise, where we looked for and couldn't find the seer, now you need to apply that looking to thoughts, both content and thinker of them. It is like a hunt, for this illusion and where it is assumed, until you have looked everywhere to see it doesn't exist.

So do you mean that as well as attempting to find the thinker of the thoughts I should also try to find the content of the thought?

Can you say a bit more about what you mean about the mind giving it meaning and purpose - do you mean giving the self meaning, or giving the clear seeing meaning? :)

I think what I mean is that once it is seen that there is no ‘I’ this creates a type of space. A kind of void that the mind cannot interpret what it means. This open space is I’m guessing clear seeing? It’s just that the mind so used to doing , explaining and interpreting doesn’t know what to do .

What do you think? If it feels right try the looking and let me know how it goes?

Do you mean sit in meditation and look at thoughts ? Yes I am happy to try this . Unless you were referring to something else.

Look again at thoughts arising and passing in the space of awareness, and look for the thinker. Look at whether what they describe or assume can be found, and what about those thoughts makes them seem r

eal?


I sat in meditation and observed my thoughts. I could see they had no reality in and of themselves. They were just like clouds that came and left.

I realised that the thoughts that seemed more true were accompanied by strong sensation in my body. If a thought seemed really really true then I would feel tension in my body. This would lead me to believe the thought was true.

However if I am using DE I can see that the sensation is itself just another thought. I don’t think I had seen that before . The fact sensation was present was what was making these thoughts seem real and true but I can find no other evidence of their existence of truth other than thoughts. There is no evidence of a thinker just a strong thought about one but no colour space shape or anything else .

[Skygazer74]

So do you mean that as well as attempting to find the thinker of the thoughts I should also try to find the content of the thought?

Kind of - more that if the content was assuming a self, to look and see whether that pointed to anything or described anything you can find.

I think what I mean is that once it is seen that there is no ‘I’ this creates a type of space. A kind of void that the mind cannot interpret what it means. This open space is I’m guessing clear seeing? It’s just that the mind so used to doing , explaining and interpreting doesn’t know what to do .

I see this as a breakthrough. This space - can you look into it, and look for its qualities, in particular any positive qualities it has please?
Does the mind have to do anything with it? Can it?

I realised that the thoughts that seemed more true were accompanied by strong sensation in my body. If a thought seemed really really true then I would feel tension in my body. This would lead me to believe the thought was true.

Yes, and conversely tension is a clue that there is some kind of thought or resistance to what is. Relaxing one tends to relax the other!

The fact sensation was present was what was making these thoughts seem real and true but I can find no other evidence of their existence of truth other than thoughts. There is no evidence of a thinker just a strong thought about one but no colour space shape or anything else .

Great - this is the only place the thinker, or self exists.

if I am using DE I can see that the sensation is itself just another thought

I am not quite sure what you mean here - is sensation thought? For me it is something else, it arises and passes in experience like a thought, and we can have a lot of thoughts about sensations but I wouldn't necessarily call sensation a thought.

I think we are ready to move on, after you respond to this :)