Stop feeling bad and realizing the ultimate truth

[ratnapani]

Hi Seenam,

Great stuff, very clear looking.

For the first one, it feels that someone has been named as doer of the activity, when in reality the activities are happening by themselves

Yes.

I am here without the label, not the egoic I but the I which can't be explained, defined.

This 'I' that is here -- where is it ?
There seems to be a feeling of an 'I' that can't be explained, defined but is there anything to be found inside or outside the body that IS actually there ?
Please have a jolly good look for this entity.

All the best,
Steve.

[Search1207]

Hi Steve

This 'I' that is here -- where is it ?
There seems to be a feeling of an 'I' that can't be explained, defined but is there anything to be found inside or outside the body that IS actually there ?
Please have a jolly good look for this entity.

There is no 'I' that can be found inside or outside or anywhere but there is this knowingness of being alive.

Although there is an understanding that there is no 'I' that is a present but still the thoughts keep talking about 'i'/'me', mind keeps planning about how it would protect itself in future if someone says/does something to 'me'. On looking for a 'me', there is nothing to be found but these thoughts keep appearing.

Regards
Seenam

[ratnapani]

Hi Senam,

Ok, there is an understanding that there is no me but no aha moment of seeing that for certain sure it seems.

Maybe if you can open a gap in thought the nature of it will become more apparent


Finding the Gap
This exercise has a dual purpose. Firstly, to become aware of each and every though as they appear. Secondly, the careful looking for the gap is an example of how carefully to look when looking for the ‘separate self’.
Here is a step-by-step description of how to look at thoughts. First thing is to sit for at least 10-15 minutes quietly somewhere, several times throughout your day. Close your eyes and just notice thoughts. Don’t engage with any thought, just notice them.
1. Notice the current thought that is present.
Like when you sit observing the body, a thought might arise “this is my feet” or “here is a pain” or “my breathing is too quick” or “I am bored with this exercise” or “I have better things to do” or any sorts of thoughts.
2. This thought will pass and another thought will come. So just observe this thought passing.
3. Then wait for the next thought to come.
4. When the next thought is present, just notice it, and see how it passes.
5. Then wait for the next thought to come.
6. Repeat #4 and #5 many-many times.
Between the 2 thoughts there is a gap. It can be very short or subtle, just a second or a few seconds before the next thought comes in.
This is how to look at thoughts:-
Looking how they come and go, and Observing the short gap between them. Noticing how the current thought is passing. And waiting for the next thought to come.
Please do the following exercise:
Throughout your waking day, try to observe the gap between thoughts as often as possible. It can be done by noticing that ‘thinking’ is happening right now, then stop and just simply wait for the next thought to come. In the ‘waiting’ there is a gap between two thoughts.
Let me know how you go.

It seems someone is believing those thoughts of I - I wonder who that could be. (:

All the best, Steve.

[Search1207]

Hi Steve

I need more time for this exercise, I will reply to you in a day or two

Many thanks
Seenam

[ratnapani]

Hi Seenam,

OK, no problemo.

It seems someone is believing those thoughts of I - I wonder who that could be. (:

While you are at it, can you find him / her / that ?

Steve.

[Search1207]

Hi Steve

Hope you are doing good

I did this exercise a few times, initially there was a non-stop story of thought, one thought followed by another without any gap. On observing the thoughts, if I was getting involved in the thoughts, I was able to see the gap ( because it felt as if I was narrating the story and I was choosing one thought, then the other thought and so on. Thus I was able to create gap between two thoughts)

When there was no involvement in the thoughts, thoughts were still appearing one after the other very quickly, I was able to observe the thoughts. But I was not able to observe beginning and end of the thoughts, thus couldn't find the gap in the thoughts. There were a few instances while observing which felt like nano-second deep sleep state.

On observing for a long period, sleep came for 15 - 20 mins when I repeated the exercise twice, thrice. I was never able to reach the stage where question can be asked - who is the believer.

Maybe I need to keep doing this exercise

Regards
Seenam

[ratnapani]

Hi Seenam,

All is good here, What are your feelings about the inquiry so far ?

The thought exercises sound a bit uncomfortable. You were obviously trying your best but falling asleep sounds like resistance.
Is thought your refuge when things are uncomfortable?

Maybe try this exercise which is more physical. Body sensations are always a good focus, some of the few things that are not constructed by assumption !

Please follow each step, don't leave out any. Take your time, looking with kindness and curiosity, no right answers, just looking for what is there.
Don't move to the next step until the previous one is clearly seen.

Repeat the exercise several times.
Stand in front of a bigger mirror.
(1) First, close the eyes and feel the sensations labelled ‘body’.

(2) Then open the eyes and look into the mirror while still paying attention to the sensations.
Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror? Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is?

(3) While still paying attention to the sensations move one hand and observe the movement from the mirror.
Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and image of movement in the mirror?

(4) Now do the same movement with the hand, but this time look at the hand directly, not from the mirror.
Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and the image ‘of movement’? Or only thoughts suggest it?

(5) Now, pay attention only to the image in the mirror.
Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’? Does the image itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘body’ at all?
Or are there only colours and shapes?

(6) Where the mirror ends, some parts of the body (probably legs) cannot be seen.
Just by the image in the mirror, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental images suggest so?
(7) Now turn away from the mirror and look forward (don’t look directly to any body parts).

Is there a ‘body’ anywhere when all thoughts and images are ignored, or are there only sensations?

(8) Start to walk slowly.
Is there a ‘body walking’, or are there only sensations?
Is there actual experience of ‘walking’ at all?
Or just THOUGHTS ABOUT ‘walking’?
Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just THOUGHTS ABOUT a ‘body’? Can such a thing as ‘walking’ be found?

(9) Are the sensations localized in space, like ‘going through the room’; OR is there only an image that is labelled ‘room’ and appearing sensations without any location?

If you feel that there may be mileage with the thought exercises by all means try again with them. I don't want this to feel like a full time job.

All the best,
Steve.

[Search1207]

Hi Steve

What are your feelings about the inquiry so far ?

Everything is becoming less personal. Life feels lighter. By observing, feeling and surrendering to resistance, resistance melts away.

The thought exercises sound a bit uncomfortable. You were obviously trying your best but falling asleep sounds like resistance.
Is thought your refuge when things are uncomfortable?

Yes, thought are indeed my refuge in uncomfortable situations

Repeat the exercise several times.
Stand in front of a bigger mirror.
(1) First, close the eyes and feel the sensations labelled ‘body’.

(2) Then open the eyes and look into the mirror while still paying attention to the sensations.
Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror? Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is?

No, there was no connection between image and sensations. Image in the mirror was just an image which has been believed as 'me'

(3) While still paying attention to the sensations move one hand and observe the movement from the mirror.
Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and image of movement in the mirror?

No, weirdly there was no connection between felt sensations and image of movement in the mirror.

(4) Now do the same movement with the hand, but this time look at the hand directly, not from the mirror.
Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and the image ‘of movement’? Or only thoughts suggest it?

There was no connection between sensation and image but thought did suggest that this hand belongs to me.

(5) Now, pay attention only to the image in the mirror.
Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’? Does the image itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘body’ at all?
Or are there only colours and shapes?

No, the image doesn't suggest that it is me, my body or body. It was only colours and shapes

(6) Where the mirror ends, some parts of the body (probably legs) cannot be seen.
Just by the image in the mirror, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental images suggest so?

By just the image, there is no knowledge of legs

(7) Now turn away from the mirror and look forward (don’t look directly to any body parts).

Is there a ‘body’ anywhere when all thoughts and images are ignored, or are there only sensations?

No, there was no body. There was only sensations

(8) Start to walk slowly.
Is there a ‘body walking’, or are there only sensations?
Is there actual experience of ‘walking’ at all?
Or just THOUGHTS ABOUT ‘walking’?
Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just THOUGHTS ABOUT a ‘body’? Can such a thing as ‘walking’ be found?

There is no body walking. However there was an experience of walking. Since the image visible to the eye was changing while moving, it was known that I was walking

(9) Are the sensations localized in space, like ‘going through the room’; OR is there only an image that is labelled ‘room’ and appearing sensations without any location?

Sensation was moving while I was walking.

Regards
Seenam

[ratnapani]

Hi Seenam,

Nice work.

Everything is becoming less personal. Life feels lighter. By observing, feeling and surrendering to resistance, resistance melts away.

Jolly good ! We seem to be 'getting there' by degrees although there is no-where to get to, just looking for something that isn't there !

Image in the mirror was just an image which has been believed as 'me'

And now? what is that image now?


T

here was no connection between sensation and image but thought did suggest that this hand belongs to me.

Try again - when thought suggests it belongs to a me - look 'back' quickly - where is the 'me' located ?

Since the image visible to the eye was changing while moving, it was known that I was walking

Really, how do you know that the image wasn't moving past this so called 'I' ?

Maybe do some more of this, as long as you can get the time to do stuff in front of a mirror!

All the best 'Steve.

[Search1207]

Hi Steve

And now? what is that image now?

That image is reflection of body of 'seenam' as of 'now'.

There was no connection between sensation and image but thought did suggest that this hand belongs to me.

Try again - when thought suggests it belongs to a me - look 'back' quickly - where is the 'me' located ?

I tried looking back at me, wasn't able to locate one but the thoughts suggested all the more strongly that the hand belonged to me.
This is extremely weird that there is no 'me' to be found but thoughts keep referring to 'me' strongly.

Since the image visible to the eye was changing while moving, it was known that I was walking

Really, how do you know that the image wasn't moving past this so called 'I' ?

I don't know for sure if image was not moving past I, but thoughts suggested that room is a fixed place in time space and it has always been there. Everytime you return to the room, you will find same things so you can assume that image was not moving past I

Regards
Seenam

[ratnapani]

Hi Seenam,

We have a bit of a circle here. While thought is believed some sort of 'I' is believed as the thinker. And while an 'I' is believed to be doing the thinking then thought will be believed.
On Jan 26th you wrote something really good

In this exercise there was another realization that thinking doesn't happen for present moment, it happens for a past or a future. So when thinking happens, present moment takes a back seat and visaversa

Maybe try the thought exercises again with that in mind, relax into allowing thought to do whatever it does, just a bird chirping. And look in the present moment, the only one that we are actually ever in.

All the best,
Steve.

[Search1207]

Hi Steve

I repeated the thought exercise 3-4 times. Each time, as soon as mind relaxed to observe thoughts,there were hardly any thoughts. There was a stillness. Tried looking for an 'I', couldn't find one. there was no sleep either.

No thoughts didn't feel like a state, everything was how it should have been. The background voice which is ever present, was there on and off but that voice didn't matter, there was no stickiness with regards to that voice.

The story of 'seenam' looked fine, there was no suggestion of any change, improvement etc. Post this exercise, thoughts are there but they are not sticky.

I am not feeling one with all other beings, I am not in love with everyone. I am ok with imperfect relationships, feeling various emotions. I still have a body, there are still experiences but it's just a body, they are just experiences. I am not sure if this is how non separate self feels like, but there is no endeavor/expectation to attain such a state either.

Regards
Seenam

[ratnapani]

Hi Seenam,

That sounds good.
I should just relax for a day or so and see if there is a 'me' or a 'myself' running the body or having experiences.

All the best,

Steve.

[Search1207]

Hi Steve

I hope you are doing well

For the past 2-3 days, there have been continuous thoughts about the story of 'seenam', about how life has been unfair to her. At times there is involvement with the thoughts but most of the times there is a deep peace inside ( it's not like I am feeling super elated, joyous or anything) . This peace is like a deeper understanding that I can't explain, there is no more search for a truth. I am still feeling bad thinking about the 'injustice' happened to 'me' but it feels ok to feel bad, it feels ok to think about it, it feels ok to talk about it, it feels ok to not understand other people, it feels ok to leave things.

At times there are thoughts about whether this is the state of 'non separate self' , then I am finding myself to be ok to not know about it, it feels ok even if this state doesn't remain forever.

If there are too many thoughts running around, sleep comes and post sleep, there are fewer thoughts

Regards
Seenam

[ratnapani]

Hi Seenam,
All is well here, I survived the wind and the floods.

A deep peace with no more searching for truth sounds good. Seeing through the illusion will not necessarily make everything feel good but it will weaken the secondary pain of 'I shouldn't feel like this'.

There is not actually a state of 'non separate self', a belief is lost while nothing is gained!

If you drop in these questions what answers come back?
Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

All the best,
Steve.