The Gate

Hi Vivien,

Please put some chocolate (or something you think you shouldn’t eat or drink) in front of you. Look at it. Inspect it closely. Smell its delicious fragrance. And pay attention to emerging desire to eat it.

When the desire is there, pay close attention to the thought process. 
See how thoughts list pros and cons why you should or shouldn’t eat the chocolate.
These opposing thoughts might even try to argue or convince each other what to decide.

What is it that is considering these options?

There was no apparent thing that was considering the options.
I used Belgian Truffles for this exercise :) When I smelled it, thoughts arose something like:
"smells good, I haven't smelled this before"
"Its ok to eat it now, I didn't eat this lately" 
There were no pros and cons thoughts. Only this justification thought. 

Is there anything that is listing the pros and cons, or only just thoughts appear about pros and cons? – look very carefully.

There was an 'approval thought' saying "It is ok to eat it this time".  Looking closely, there wasn't anything doing the approval. It is just that thought arising.

Now, make a decision, but whatever you decide, don’t eat the chocolate (yet). Rather just pay very close attention when the decision is made. Particularly pay attention to thoughts, as the decision is made. 

Let’s say a thought appear: “I decided not to eat the chocolate”
So the thought about the decision just appeared. What made that thought to appear?

I noticed the thought "It's ok to eat this time" This is just a thought about the decision to eat it. Couldn't find what made it to appear.

Can you find the thing that made that decision, apart from the presence of the thought about the decision?

No, I couldn't find who/what made the decision to eat it. Only that thought became known.

How exactly the decision is made?

Decision just arrived just as any other thought popping up.

Now, act according to the decision. (Either eat or don’t eat the chocolate.)
What is it that performed the chosen action?

The body performed the action; hand took the chocolate and moved it to the mouth and the mouth worked to chew it and swallow it. Tongue felt the taste and texture sensations. Sensations felt all the way during the action.
Another thought came "eat another" followed by "not today" ):

Thank you for the interesting exercise. I looked at these aspects when I was eating other things throughout the day.

Happy Thanksgiving to you, Vivien. Tomorrow is Thanksgiving day for us in US. I give million thanks to you with all my gratitude for pointing me towards the Truth. Its unraveling slowly but surely.

Hi Grace,

There was an 'approval thought' saying "It is ok to eat it this time". Looking closely, there wasn't anything doing the approval. It is just that thought arising.

Yes, nice observation.

So is it clear that there is no such thing as decision? That there are only thoughts with the words “I’ve decided to eat it”? But not an actual, real decision as such? Only thoughts ABOUT it?

Thank you for the interesting exercise. I looked at these aspects when I was eating other things throughout the day.

That’s very good if incorporate looking into your everyday life. Actually, it’s quite important. You are doing very well :)

Happy Thanksgiving to you, Vivien. Tomorrow is Thanksgiving day for us in US. I give million thanks to you with all my gratitude for pointing me towards the Truth. Its unraveling slowly but surely.

You are very welcome dear Grace :)

Here is another exercise for you.

Lie down onto a bed. Observer very carefully how the decision arises to get up.

Can a self be found making the body leave the bed?
Where does the "decision", the "command" to get up comes from?
What makes the body get up?
Is there a ‘I’ that commands the body?
When lying there, shout 'GET UP' internally as loudly as you can. Does that affect the outcome?

Repeat this with sitting in a chair. Describe in detail the decision of standing up.
How does the decision happen exactly?
Does a self come in and take over, weighing pros and cons, looking at possible consequences?
Or does standing up just happen, or not, without any doer?
What makes the body to stand up?

Now let’s investigate intention.
Sit in a chair and observe how the intention of standing up happens.
How is it known that there is an intention to stand up?
While sitting there, say internally several times ‘I intend to get up’. What happens?
What is it that made the intention to get up?

Now, zoom onto the intention (of getting up) very closely. Look at the intention itself directly.
Stare at the intention itself. Not the thoughts of “I intend to get up”, but THE intention itself.
Can you locate THE intention itself?
How the intention is actually experienced?

Vivien

Thanks Vivien,

So is it clear that there is no such thing as decision? That there are only thoughts with the words “I’ve decided to eat it”? But not an actual, real decision as such? Only thoughts ABOUT it?

Yes, it's clear that there is no actual decision that we are accustomed to think as such. There are only thoughts with the idea about a decision.

Lie down onto a bed. Observer very carefully how the decision arises to get up.
Can a self be found making the body leave the bed?

  It was only a thought about getting out of bed that made the body leave the bed. No self was involved in the action.

Where does the "decision", the "command" to get up comes from?

 It arose just as any other thought arising and can not trace back to a place where it is coming from.

What makes the body get up?

 A thought made the body getting up.

Is there a ‘I’ that commands the body? 

  No "I" was found to command the body.

When lying there, shout 'GET UP' internally as loudly as you can. Does that affect the outcome?

 
No, it didn't. Body didn't follow that command. It got up when a thought about getting up came up on its own.

 Repeat this with sitting in a chair. Describe in detail the decision of standing up.
How does the decision happen exactly?

 It was a thought just arose by itself

Does a self come in and take over, weighing pros and cons, looking at possible consequences?No, there was no self, it was only a thought. There weren't any thoughts about pros and cons or consequences in this case. 
Or does standing up just happen, or not, without any doer?

 The standing up happened without any doer, it happened automatically.

What makes the body to stand up?

 
A thought about standing up trigger the body to stand up. I found that some occasions the standing up happens without a thought noticeble.

 Now let’s investigate intention.
Sit in a chair and observe how the intention of standing up happens.
How is it known that there is an intention to stand up?

I couldn't create an intension to stand up. I was sitting in the chair at the computer and after some time a thought arose to have a cup of coffee and the body stood up on its own. The intension was only known by the fact that the standing up happened. I did not see an intension-thought about getting up, only noticed the thought about getting a coffee. 

While sitting there, say internally several times ‘I intend to get up’. What happens?

 Saying "I intent to get up" did not trigger getting up. It waited until such time a thought arose about the need to get up.

What is it that made the intention to get up?

 There wasn't anything that made an intension to get up. Perhaps the thought about getting a coffee.

 Now, zoom onto the intention (of getting up) very closely. Look at the intention itself directly. Stare at the intention itself. Not the thoughts of “I intend to get up”, but THE intention itself.
Can you locate THE intention itself?

 No, the intension could't be located.

How the intention is actually experienced?

 There was no direct experience about the intension.
Thank you

Hi Grace,

It was only a thought about getting out of bed that made the body leave the bed. No self was involved in the action.

Please repeat the experiment again.

Does a thought can make the body leave the bed?
Does a thought have power over actions and movements?

A thought made the body getting up.

Does a thought have a power to make the body getting up?
Are thoughts directing and moving the body?
Does a thought have volition?
What can a thought do?

It got up when a thought about getting up came up on its own.

Are thoughts the director and the mover of the body?
If yes, how do you know that?
How are they doing that?

A thought about standing up trigger the body to stand up.

Can you actually OBSERVE as the body is PERFORMING the ACT of triggering the body to stand up?
How does this triggering process looks like?

Can a thought actually (literally) trigger an action or anything at all, or ‘triggering’ is just a logical conclusion?

Vivien

Hi Vivien,

It was only a thought about getting out of bed that made the body leave the bed. No self was involved in the action.

Please repeat the experiment again. 
Does a thought can make the body leave the bed?

Actually, the body leaving the bed happened after the thought arose but the thought actually did not make the action of the body. Body left the bed automatically by itself. I have observed that the body often acts without a preceding thought about the action.

Does a thought have power over actions and movements?

No, a thought doesn't have any power over actions and movements.

A thought made the body getting up.

Does a thought have a power to make the body getting up?

No, a thought doesn't have a power to make the body getting up.

Are thoughts directing and moving the body?

No, thoughts are not directing or moving the body.

Does a thought have volition?

No, thoughts don't have volition.

What can a thought do?

A thought can not do anything. It only arises and passes away automatically.

It got up when a thought about getting up came up on its own.

Are thoughts the director and the mover of the body?
If yes, how do you know that? How are they doing that?

No, the body moves automatically by itself. Thoughts are not directing or moving it.

A thought about standing up trigger the body to stand up.

Can you actually OBSERVE as the body is PERFORMING the ACT of triggering the body to stand up?

No, I can not observe the thought performing any action. ("triggering by a thought" sounds funny to me now)

How does this triggering process looks like?

Such triggering process can not be experienced. 

Can a thought actually (literally) trigger an action or anything at all, or ‘triggering’ is just a logical conclusion?

It was just a logical conclusion, not something that can be experienced directly.
Thank you.

Hi Grace,

You did a nice looking.

Let’s take a look at the idea that there is a someone who is focusing attention.

Close your eyes and sit quietly for 10-15 minutes.
Watch what focus does.

Focus on focusing, attention itself.
Is there anything moving attention, or it moves by itself?
Is there a focus-er?

Hold focus on breath - see how it moves to thoughts, sensations, sounds.
Is there something controlling it?
What moves attention?
Is thought in control of attention?

Vivien

Hi Vivien, 
I am sorry, I had trouble with the first part of the exercise, trying to focus without an object. Then I did it taking the body as the object to focus the attention. If I misunderstood this exercise, I will repeat when you give your feedback. 
Part 1:

Let’s take a look at the idea that there is a someone who is focusing attention.
Close your eyes and sit quietly for 10-15 minutes. 

Watch what focus does.

It was hard to see anything as focus, nothing was experienced as focus.

Focus on focusing, attention itself.

 When tried this, there were only thoughts.

Is there anything moving attention, or it moves by itself? 

There was only experiencing of each sensation without anything moving. Attention was nothing but knowing the sensations (in this case). Wherever a sensation arose, it became known. Sensations at different places of the body were known. There wasn't anything that moved the attention, sensations at different places of the body were experienced. 

Is there a focus-er?

There was only a focusing (knowing) but couldn't find any focus-er or know-er.

Part 2:

Hold focus on breath - see how it moves to thoughts, sensations, sounds. 
Is there something controlling it?

Can not find anything doing any control of it.

What moves attention? 

Attention was at different things at different times. There wasn't anything that moved it.

Is thought in control of attention?

No, there was no control of attention by thoughts or anything else. Attention just was present where ever it was (=knowing was present). When sensations on the nostrils and below the nose were felt, there were no thoughts, but raw experience of sensations. When thoughts were present they were known, but there was no moving of focus or attention experienced as such.
Thank you

Hi Grace,

You did a great looking :)

Investigate the followings one-by-one very carefully. Spend several minutes with each question.

Is there a control over ‘sensations’?
Is there a control over ‘sounds’?
Is there a control over ‘visual image/colors’?
Is there a control over ‘smells’?
Is there a control over ‘tastes’?

Is there a control over ‘thoughts’?

Is there a control over anything?

Can you say with 100% certainty that there is no such thing a chooser?
Is it completely clear that there is no I/me choosing or deciding?

Is it totally clear that there is no such thing as choice or free will?

If not, please write some examples when it seems to be otherwise.

Vivien

Thank you Vivien,

Investigate the followings one-by-one very carefully. Spend several minutes with each question.
Is there a control over ‘sensations’?

No, when there is a sensation, that is what is experienced, it can't be changed.

Is there a control over ‘sounds’?

No, there is no control over sounds, whatever existing sounds are perceived by the ear.  

Is there a control over ‘visual image/colors’?

No, there is no control over visual images/colors. Whatever visual images/colors in front of the eye is experienced by the eye.

Is there a control over ‘smells’?

No, there is no control over smells. Whatever smell is present perceived by the nose. 

Is there a control over ‘tastes’?

No, there is no control over taste. Whatever comes in contact with the tongue is experienced as the taste

Is there a control over ‘thoughts’?

No, there is no control over thoughts. They arise and pass away on their own.

Is there a control over anything?

No, there is no control over anything; all what can be experienced is color, sound,smell, taste, sensations and thoughts arising and there is no control over any of these. 

Can you say with 100% certainty that there is no such thing a chooser?

Yes, it is 100% certain there is no chooser (Please see my answer to the last question because this certainty is coming from the support by additional investigations on doubts and I want to know the validity of the method of investigation used)

Is it completely clear that there is no I/me choosing or deciding?

Yes (as mentioned above, contingent upon the validity of my investigation)

Is it totally clear that there is no such thing as choice or free will?

Yes (as mentioned above, contingent upon the validity of my investigation)

If not, please write some examples when it seems to be otherwise.

There were examples for "seems to be otherwise" category. I investigated apparent chooser/choices/controller etc as follows. Please let me know if this is a correct way to inquire into such doubts:

Some examples:
When you send instructions to do an exercise, eyes see the words, thoughts interpret what needs to be done then there appear to be a choice to do it or not respond to it. Apparently, I choose to do it. When looking closely what happens is a thought arise with the idea of wanting to do and the doing happens. If a thought arise "No, I don't want to do it", then it won't happen. Actually there is no choice. Which of the 2 alternate thoughts come up is not under any control. So far "do it"-thought came always, but no guarantee what thought comes when.

Sometimes tasks get done without thinking about it; For example when cooking an item even thought it starts with a thought that "I am going to cook this", the rest of the process happens without any choosing or decisions.  The process has many steps and each step apparently has choices as to how to do each step and what ingredients to add when to add etc., but most of the time these steps gets carried out without any decision-thought (or a choosing-thought).

There is still another unclear issue which I don't know how to investigate into; I watch thoughts often. How does it happen? Is the brain doing that? What part of the body knows the thoughts? How to check?

All investigations helped seeing through the illusions of choosing/choices/chooser, deciding, free-will, I/me/self, controller.
Thanks so much for your guidance, without which I wouldn't know what to look, how to look or where to look.
Thanks

Hi Grace,

When you send instructions to do an exercise, eyes see the words, thoughts interpret what needs to be done then there appear to be a choice to do it or not respond to it.

Can a thought actually (literally) interpret something? Can a thought do that?
Or rather there are just thoughts ABOUT interpretation?

Is there an actual interpretation going on in thoughts?
What can a thought do?
Does a thought have a volition?

Please don’t just think through the above questions, but actually check them in experience.

When you send instructions to do an exercise, eyes see the words, thoughts interpret what needs to be done then there appear to be a choice to do it or not respond to it. Apparently, I choose to do it. When looking closely what happens is a thought arise with the idea of wanting to do and the doing happens. If a thought arise "No, I don't want to do it", then it won't happen. Actually there is no choice. Which of the 2 alternate thoughts come up is not under any control. So far "do it"-thought came always, but no guarantee what thought comes when.

Can you really see this, or rather this is a logical conclusion?

Sometimes tasks get done without thinking about it; For example when cooking an item even thought it starts with a thought that "I am going to cook this", the rest of the process happens without any choosing or decisions. The process has many steps and each step apparently has choices as to how to do each step and what ingredients to add when to add etc., but most of the time these steps gets carried out without any decision-thought (or a choosing-thought).

Can you actually see this in experience, or this is rather an intellectual understanding?

What is a decision-thought or choosing-thought exactly?
What makes these thoughts something special that you call them as a decision or choosing thought?

Is there any inherent difference between a deciding/choosing-thought or any other thought other than what they are about?

There is still another unclear issue which I don't know how to investigate into; I watch thoughts often. How does it happen? Is the brain doing that? What part of the body knows the thoughts? How to check?

This is an intellectual question. You are asking this because you believe that the eyes see, the ears hear, the nose smell, so now you are speculating that what is it that is doing or performing the act of thinking.

But the answer doesn’t lie in learned intellectual ideas. The answer is in looking at experience directly.

You have actually check and see in EXPERIENCE what is doing thinking (if there is anything at all).

So sit down, close your eyes, and just let thoughts come and go, and investigate:

Is there a thinker in experience?
Is there anything in experience that is performing the act of thinking?
Or any thinker is just imagined?

Does a thought need a thinker to appear?
Or a thought appears on its own, without anyone or anything doing it?

(We will come back investigating if really the eyes see and the ears hear.)

Thanks so much for your guidance, without which I wouldn't know what to look, how to look or where to look.

You are very welcome :)

Vivien

Hi Vivien,

When you send instructions to do an exercise, eyes see the words, thoughts interpret what needs to be done then there appear to be a choice to do it or not respond to it.

Can a thought actually (literally) interpret something? Can a thought do that?

Actually, what I meant was more thoughts arise about the instructions. No, a thought can't interpret something or do anything at all.

Or rather there are just thoughts ABOUT interpretation

Yes, there are just more thoughts arise about interpretation.

Is there an actual interpretation going on in thoughts?

No, nothing is happening in thoughts.

What can a thought do?

A thought can not do anything at all. It just arises and passes away. Thats all.

Does a thought have a volition?

No, thoughts don't have volition, a thought may be about a volition.

Please don’t just think through the above questions, but actually check them in experience.

Yes, I did check them in experience

When you send instructions to do an exercise, eyes see the words, thoughts interpret what needs to be done then there appear to be a choice to do it or not respond to it. Apparently, I choose to do it. When looking closely what happens is a thought arise with the idea of wanting to do and the doing happens. If a thought arise "No, I don't want to do it", then it won't happen. Actually there is no choice. Which of the 2 alternate thoughts come up is not under any control. So far "do it"-thought came always, but no guarantee what thought comes when.

Can you really see this, or rather this is a logical conclusion?

When I watched the thoughts as I read instructions, this is what I noticed. Some thoughts arose when writing up.

Sometimes tasks get done without thinking about it; For example when cooking an item even thought it starts with a thought that "I am going to cook this", the rest of the process happens without any choosing or decisions. The process has many steps and each step apparently has choices as to how to do each step and what ingredients to add when to add etc., but most of the time these steps gets carried out without any decision-thought (or a choosing-thought).

Can you actually see this in experience, or this is rather an intellectual understanding?

This is what I noticed many occasions while carrying out some tasks like cooking. Is this considered to be experience? When I notice it, some thoughts arise about it too. Is the latter part intellectual?

What is a decision-thought or choosing-thought exactly?

What I meant was "a thought about a decision" and "a thought about choosing", just referring to the content.

What makes these thoughts something special that you call them as a decision or choosing thought?

They are same as any other thoughts, only difference is the contents.

Is there any inherent difference between a deciding/choosing-thought or any other thought other than what they are about?

 No difference other than what they are about.

There is still another unclear issue which I don't know how to investigate into; I watch thoughts often. How does it happen? Is the brain doing that? What part of the body knows the thoughts? How to check?

This is an intellectual question. You are asking this because you believe that the eyes see, the ears hear, the nose smell, so now you are speculating that what is it that is doing or performing the act of thinking.
But the answer doesn’t lie in learned intellectual ideas. The answer is in looking at experience directly.
You have actually check and see in EXPERIENCE what is doing thinking (if there is anything at all).

Actually, my question was "How does the watching of thoughts happen" (not how thinking happens). Sorry, I didn't explain it clearly.Anyway I looked at this closely and it was seen that there is nothing as "watching thoughts" but thoughts become known and other thoughts arise with content such as  "I want to watch thoughts, I am watching thoughts" etc.

So sit down, close your eyes, and just let thoughts come and go, and investigate:
Is there a thinker in experience?

I can not directly experience a thinker, only see thoughts arising and passing away.

Is there anything in experience that is performing the act of thinking?
Or any thinker is just imagined?

No, I can not directly experience anything that perform any act of thinking. Thinker is just imagined. No such act or process of thinking exist, thoughts just arise.

Does a thought need a thinker to appear?
Or a thought appears on its own, without anyone or anything doing it?

No, a thought doesn't need a thinker or anything for it to arise. It appears on its own.

(We will come back investigating if really the eyes see and the ears hear.)

Thank you Vivien, looking forward to that investigation.

Hi Grace,

This is what I noticed many occasions while carrying out some tasks like cooking. Is this considered to be experience?

Yes :)

When I notice it, some thoughts arise about it too. Is the latter part intellectual?

Thoughts are always intellectual, but it’s normal to have thoughts about what happens. We have to use words (thoughts) to communicate our experience.

But there is a difference between using words that best describe the experience without adding anything extra (just the facts), and creating a philosophy or speculation around it.
Can you see the difference?

Actually, my question was "How does the watching of thoughts happen" (not how thinking happens). Sorry, I didn't explain it clearly.Anyway I looked at this closely and it was seen that there is nothing as "watching thoughts" but thoughts become known and other thoughts arise with content such as "I want to watch thoughts, I am watching thoughts" etc.

OK, let’s look at this a bit more.

Is there a watcher of thoughts?
Is there something outside of experience, looking in and watching thoughts?

I can not directly experience a thinker, only see thoughts arising and passing away.

And what sees the arising and passing of thoughts?
Is there an inherent seer of thoughts, independent from thoughts?

Vivien

Hi Vivien,

Thoughts are always intellectual, but it’s normal to have thoughts about what happens. We have to use words (thoughts) to communicate our experience. 
But there is a difference between using words that best describe the experience without adding anything extra (just the facts), and creating a philosophy or speculation around it.
Can you see the difference?

Yes, its clear now. Thanks for the clarification

Actually, my question was "How does the watching of thoughts happen" (not how thinking happens). Sorry, I didn't explain it clearly.Anyway I looked at this closely and it was seen that there is nothing as "watching thoughts" but thoughts become known and other thoughts arise with content such as "I want to watch thoughts, I am watching thoughts" etc.

OK, let’s look at this a bit more.
Is there a watcher of thoughts?

No, there is no watcher. Thoughts become known (experienced).

Is there something outside of experience, looking in and watching thoughts?

No, There isn't anything that is looking at or watching thoughts, there is only the experience.

I can not directly experience a thinker, only see thoughts arising and passing away.

And what sees the arising and passing of thoughts?

Thoughts are just been experienced, not seen or experienced by anybody

Is there an inherent seer of thoughts, independent from thoughts?

There is no seer or experiencer, independent of thoughts. There is only seen/knowing/experiencing of thoughts.
Thank You

Hi Grace,

Now let’s go back to your previous comment when you said that eyes see, nose smells, ears hear.

Here is an interesting exercise. Try it:

Conventionally it is said that 'I see' and it is assumed that it is eyes or the body that is 'me' that is doing the seeing.

The words on this screen are seen but what is it that is doing the seeing?

It’s important not to just think about this but look right here and now the immediate experience.

Is it 'eyes' or 'the body' that are doing seeing?
Is something 'seeing through' from an inside place?

Vivien

Hi Vivien,

Now let’s go back to your previous comment when you said that eyes see, nose smells, ears hear.
Here is an interesting exercise. Try it:
Conventionally it is said that 'I see' and it is assumed that it is eyes or the body that is 'me' that is doing the seeing.
The words on this screen are seen but what is it that is doing the seeing? 

I could only experience the words on the screen, but the eyes or anything else was not found actually doing the seeing.

It’s important not to just think about this but look right here and now the immediate experience.

Is it 'eyes' or 'the body' that are doing seeing?

Eyes or body was not doing the seeing, but seeing just happened. 

Is something 'seeing through' from an inside place?

Clearly, there was no one from inside seeing through.

Yes, it was an interesting exercise; I investigated the hearing, smelling, tasting, and feeling sensations as well and found:
Ears didn't do the hearing, sounds were experienced.
nose didn't do the smelling, smells were experienced.
tongue didn't do the tasting, tastes were experienced.
body didn't do the feeling of sensations, the sensations were experienced.
And there wasn't anything/anybody inside that doing the action or experiencing the sound, smell, taste or sensations. However, outside the exercise, when something is seen, heard etc., often there were feelings that I saw or I heard, but when remembered to look, it was only the thought saying such things as "I saw that', I heard that' etc.

Thank you for pointing.