ja

[domostroy]

Where does seeing take place?

I can't seem to experience anything that gives me an answer, other than out from the head. There is just seeing.

Are seeing and the seen two separate things?
Can you put seeing one side, and the seen the other side, with clear division between two?

It doesn't seem that way. I have to concentrate to discern seeing from the seen, but then I don't see clearly anymore. I wanted to write "Seeing and the seen seem to be one" when answering previous questions but avoided that to not seem to be trying to sound "spiritual". Sorry about that.

If fear comes up, please tell me a bit more about it. Fear of what?

I tried many times, also today, to do as you suggested few days ago, to speak to fear as if it was an entity. To ask what it is afraid of, what it trying to protect me from etc. Also to look for images associated with it, to look behind it etc. No communication of that sort whatsover so far. I can "melt" most of the sensation of fear if I choose to, but there is always at least a bit left. Always at the solar plexus area.

[Vivien]

Hi Jaro,

I can't seem to experience anything that gives me an answer, other than out from the head. There is just seeing.

Conventionally it is said that 'I see' and it is assumed that it is eyes or the body that is 'me' that is doing the seeing.

The words on this screen are seen but what is it that is doing the seeing?

It’s important not to just think about this but look right here and now the immediate experience.

Is it 'eyes' or 'the body' that are doing seeing?

Is something 'seeing through' from an inside place?

About the fear: if it’s not bothering you, not preventing looking then that’s fine.

Vivien

[domostroy]

The words on this screen are seen but what is it that is doing the seeing?

Is it 'eyes' or 'the body' that are doing seeing?

Is something 'seeing through' from an inside place?

I know that the eyes and the brain do the seeing but I don't experience my eyes as they are when seeing. And when I see it really is just seeing. But I can defocus a bit and "look inward". Then I have a sense of what I wrote before. That something, I guess if I was talking to someone else I'd say the brain or the mind or I (no, I can't experience them in any way, they are just words) is seeing. I called it "the command center" before, for lack of a better word. That something that I sense is behind my eyes, inside my scull. It's a sense of that something seeing through a hole in the front, in my face. Approximately goggle-shaped. So yes, it's a sense of seeing through an inside place. Neither the eyes nor the body are sensed to do the seeing. I don't experience the two eyes I have in two small sockets. I can feel my eyes sometimes, of course, but I can't feel them doing the seeing.

[domostroy]

I missed a word. I wanted to write "So yes, it's a sense of seeing through a hole FROM an inside place."

[domostroy]

Hmm, yea.. I have to be creative for the last statement to feel true. Manufacture it, like awareness before. Right now I'm pretty confused as to what the actual experience is like. When I look at the screen or elsewhere right now, there is just a sense of seeing done by a goggle-shaped area on the surface of my face, where the eyes are. Like seeng done by one huge eye. And what is seen. Nothing else, really.

[domostroy]

After trying to sense what's going on for the rest of the day: the sensation of seeing vary, but most of the time I have a sense of seeing through a goggle-shaped hole in my face from an inside place.

I have some questions, if I may. Is it advaisable to do extra work on questions that call forth fear, to try to "push through"? It seems at the moment that fear should be a good guide. Also, sometimes I get this feeling of almost getting in touch with something, possibly what I am looking for. You know, like when you can't remember a title of a movie but at some point it feels like you're very close to remembering and the it "escapes". Is it advisable to try to stay there and keep coming back or is it better to just flow with the process?
Sometimes it feels like I'm losing momentum and sometimes I totally lose touch with the process, like it's unreal.
What would be a good thing to do then?
I have shielded myself from almost everything, including reading other topics on this forum. Partly to not be influenced, partly to make more time for the process. Is there any recommended reading though? I miss reading...
Is there any other advise you can give me?
It seems your role is to minimize your influence and let me do stuff, so I will understand if you just ignore all of those questions.

Lastly, I would like to thank you so much for taking the time to guide me. It's really wonderful that you guys do it and I appreciate your guidance greatly. You take time every day to reply to me, even on weekends, and I know you simultaniously also guide other people. It truly is amazing. Thank you!
And sorry for writing so much sometimes, I'll do my best to be more on point.

[Vivien]

Hi Jaro,

I have some questions, if I may. Is it advaisable to do extra work on questions that call forth fear, to try to "push through"? It seems at the moment that fear should be a good guide. Also, sometimes I get this feeling of almost getting in touch with something, possibly what I am looking for.

If you feel comfortable to do that, you can do so.

I have shielded myself from almost everything, including reading other topics on this forum. Partly to not be influenced, partly to make more time for the process. Is there any recommended reading though? I miss reading...
Is there any other advise you can give me?

My advice would be NOT to read anything at all. Reading happens only intellectually. And you already have too much intellectual knowledge about this with lots of ideas. Intellectualization is counterproductive. You have to see it for yourself, which can happen only with actually looking and searching for the self, and not by reading it and taking on more beliefs.

It seems your role is to minimize your influence and let me do stuff, so I will understand if you just ignore all of those questions.

My role is give you questions that help you look to the right direction and see things for yourself. So my role is not to give you more beliefs but rather questions the ones you already have.

Lastly, I would like to thank you so much for taking the time to guide me. It's really wonderful that you guys do it and I appreciate your guidance greatly. You take time every day to reply to me, even on weekends, and I know you simultaniously also guide other people. It truly is amazing. Thank you!

You are very welcome :)

After trying to sense what's going on for the rest of the day: the sensation of seeing vary, but most of the time I have a sense of seeing through a goggle-shaped hole in my face from an inside place.

All right. Now please turn your attention around, and look what is BEHIND this ‘goggle-shaped hole’.
WHAT do you find there?

Vivien

[domostroy]

look what is BEHIND this ‘goggle-shaped hole’.
WHAT do you find there?

There seems to be nothing there. Wow. I just had a general sense of there being SOMETHING, but after a longer while I realized that that sense was made up of a combination of sensations on the surface of the scull, probably skin, and imagining seeing something with closed eyes. Oh, and an idea of there being this or that, of course. I know intellectually that my scull is not empty, but experientially there is nothing there. No "command center", no "awareness". Nothing.

[Vivien]

Hi Jaro,

Great!

And how does it feel to see this?

Vivien

[domostroy]

And how does it feel to see this?

Liberating, but not liberating enough :)
There was some laughter. It feels like the fear transformed into yearning. Or was it there yearning all the time and I mislabeled the feeling? It feels like I'm close to both laughter and crying. A bit like my wife for a few days every month. I don't think I will ever judge her for it again...

[Vivien]

Hi Jaro,

Nice :)

Liberating, but not liberating enough :)

What is missing?

Please sit on a chair doing nothing for a few minutes. Watch the thoughts coming and going.

Can you trace a thought back to where it came?
In the same way, can you follow a thought to its destination?
Can you tell where thoughts come from and go to, without using any imagination or speculation?

Can you know what will be your next thought, before the next thought appears?

Please repeat this exercise several times before replying.

Vivien

[domostroy]

What is missing?

What a roller coaster ride... From exhilarated to overwhelmed by sadness due to this question. Some fear also came back. There was an automated answering repeated several times: "nothing is missing, nothing is missing...". I don't know if I tried to comfort myself or if that answering "just happened". Both sadness and fear subsided by themselves while doing the following exercise. I feel pretty empty now.

Can you trace a thought back to where it came?
In the same way, can you follow a thought to its destination?
Can you tell where thoughts come from and go to, without using any imagination or speculation?

Can you know what will be your next thought, before the next thought appears?

I've done this before. The answers to thsese questions are always the same: I have no idea where thoughts come from and go to and I cannot predict my next thought.

[domostroy]

What is missing?

I just realized I didn't answer this question directly. Speculation: Liberation is missing. I don't feel like there is anything missing.

[Vivien]

Hi Jaro,

I just realized I didn't answer this question directly. Speculation: Liberation is missing. I don't feel like there is anything missing.

What is liberation?
How would you recognize it if it had happened?

Vivien

[domostroy]

What is liberation?
How would you recognize it if it had happened?

Ah, room for speculation for a change :)
For better or worse, I've seen and heard many people datail their experience. The individual experiences vary, but there are some common denominators. The realization that there is no separate self ("I"), and there never was one. It seems that this realization is unmistakable and there is no doubt, at least no long-lasting doubt. And that what once has been realized cannot be "unrealized".

So yeah, I think that liberation is the falling off of the illusion that there is and ever was a separate self. I'd know it without a doubt and the illusion would never permanently come back. I would regognized it has happened by not having the illusion anymore, I guess.