I want to see what is true

[Lagrange901]

Can it be known how tall the body is?

No.

Does the body have a weight or volume?

Weight and volume are thoughts, the body is a thought, I cannot experience directly any weight/volume, only sensation interpreted as such.

In actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

There is only sensation and thoughts about shape, no true shape/form is experienced.

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?

No, only sensation, the boundary cannot be experienced. I can only feel the clothes, there is no body being felt other than pressure on the part that is sitting.

Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

I am feeling a sensation of pressure, body/chair/boundary are thoughts. So there is no experienced boundary.

Is there an inside or an outside?

Inside/Outside are thoughts, I can only experience what I'm feeling, and it has no inside/outside, there is only the sensation.

If there is an inside - inside of what exactly?

I don't know..

If there is an outside, the outside of what exactly?

I don't know, because I cannot experience the boundary.

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?

Body refers to an image that appears after sensation, It's a collection of thoughts.

What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

Thought.


Body/self/boundary all those things are really hard to search for, I'm trying but it feels like I don't even know what to look at, it's like chasing a ghost.

[forgetmenot]

Hello Anders,

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?

Body refers to an image that appears after sensation, It's a collection of thoughts.

The WORD/LABEL ‘body’ actually refers to thought.
Thought points to colour and to sensation and labels them ‘body’, however does colour suggest in any way that it is a body? Does sensation suggest in any way that it is a body?

What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

Thought.

Yes, exactly. The AE of the body = thought

Body/self/boundary all those things are really hard to search for, I'm trying but it feels like I don't even know what to look at, it's like chasing a ghost.

Yes…there are images both ‘visually’ and ‘mental’ and ideas that are facsimile’s of abody…however, where can this body be found?

Here is an even deeper investigation of the body. Please follow each step, don't leave out any. Take your time. Don't move to the next step until the previous one is clearly seen. Repeat the exercise several times.

Stand in front of a bigger mirror.

(1) First, close the eyes and feel the sensations labelled ‘body’.

(2) Then open the eyes and look into the mirror while still paying attention to the sensations.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror?
Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is?


(3) While still paying attention to the sensations move one hand and observe the movement from the mirror.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and image of movement in the mirror?

(4) Now do the same movement with the hand, but this time look at the hand directly, not from the mirror.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and the image ‘of movement’?
Or only thoughts suggest it?

(5) Now, pay attention only to the image in the mirror.

Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’?
Does the image itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘body’ at all?
Or are there only colours and shapes?

(6) Where the mirror ends, some parts of the body (probably legs) cannot be seen.

Just by the image in the mirror, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental images suggest so?

(7) Now turn away from the mirror and look forward (don’t look directly to any body parts).

Is there a ‘body’ anywhere when all thoughts and images are ignored, or are there only sensations?

(8) Start to walk slowly.

Is there a ‘body walking’, or are there only sensations?
Is there actual experience of ‘walking’ at all?
Or just THOUGHTS ABOUT ‘walking’?
Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just THOUGHTS ABOUT a ‘body’?
Can such a thing as ‘walking’ be found?

(9) Are the sensations localized in space, like ‘going through the room’; OR is there only an image that is labelled ‘room’ and appearing sensations without any location?

Kay

[Lagrange901]

Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror?
Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is?

There is only a mental connection, the image has nothing to do with the sensation, and the actual image shown in the mirror is different from the mental image of 'body'.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and image of movement in the mirror?

Only a mental connection, a very strong mental habit that says : "this is my arm"
It creates a bridge between what is seen and sensation and it labels it 'body'. My mind can create a lot of logical explanations as to why it creates this connection, but the point is that the only thing that connects the two is a thought, and thoughts don't last, while I am not a thought that comes and goes as the 'body'.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and the image ‘of movement’?
Or only thoughts suggest it?

There is a mental connection, it's a subtle thought that suggests it, it's hard to identify.

Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’?

It does not, I've had moments in my life and I still do, when suddenly that image in the mirror looks like a complete stranger for a brief moment.

Does the image itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘body’ at all?

It is a thought that says the image is a body, the image doesn't suggest anything.

Or are there only colours and shapes?

Only colour and shapes.

Just by the image in the mirror, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental images suggest so?

There is no knowledge of legs, there are only thoughts about legs.

Is there a ‘body’ anywhere when all thoughts and images are ignored, or are there only sensations?

There are only sensations, no body.

Is there a ‘body walking’, or are there only sensations?

There are only sensations

Is there actual experience of ‘walking’ at all?

There is actual experience of the sensation of walking, but no actual walking other than thought.

Or just THOUGHTS ABOUT ‘walking’?

Thoughts about walking.

Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just THOUGHTS ABOUT a ‘body’?

I don't even know what a body is if I really look, there is no such thing as a body or mind, there is only what is, I don't know anything...
There are thoughts about : ...
There are thoughts and that's it, they are not even about a body... when the word body comes in front of me, a series of thoughts appear, are they referring to a body ? I don't know. Everything I thought/think that I know, I actually don't know.
Thoughts about the body change all the time, the 'body' changes all the time, but what I see in the mirror is not the mental body. It's an actual image, it doesn't tell me that it is 'mine' or that it is a 'body', but it's there and it's real, while the mental 'body' is not.

Can such a thing as ‘walking’ be found?

There is the sensation labeled 'walking', there is a thought suggesting that it is 'walking'. Is there actual walking ? I don't know what actual walking is ... I'm a bit confused... because those simple things that I took for granted become impossible to understand when I look at them.
Feeling can be found, mental images can be found, can 'walking' be found ? Yes, walking can only be found when the thought walking arises, and that's it, that's just all 'walking' is, a thought/word. Because words are also thoughts, there are no actual words here, only colour being interpreted as 'words'.

Are the sensations localized in space, like ‘going through the room’; OR is there only an image that is labelled ‘room’ and appearing sensations without any location?

There is an image labeled 'room' and sensations appearing and not suggesting any location.

[forgetmenot]

Hi Anders,

Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror?
Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is?

There is only a mental connection, the image has nothing to do with the sensation, and the actual image shown in the mirror is different from the mental image of 'body'.

Wonderful observation re actual image and mental image of body!

Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and image of movement in the mirror?

Only a mental connection, a very strong mental habit that says : "this is my arm"
It creates a bridge between what is seen and sensation and it labels it 'body'. My mind can create a lot of logical explanations as to why it creates this connection, but the point is that the only thing that connects the two is a thought, and thoughts don't last, while I am not a thought that comes and goes as the 'body'.

Lovely :)

Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just THOUGHTS ABOUT a ‘body’?

I don't even know what a body is if I really look, there is no such thing as a body or mind, there is only what is, I don't know anything...
There are thoughts about : ...
There are thoughts and that's it, they are not even about a body... when the word body comes in front of me, a series of thoughts appear, are they referring to a body ? I don't know. Everything I thought/think that I know, I actually don't know.
Thoughts about the body change all the time, the 'body' changes all the time, but what I see in the mirror is not the mental body. It's an actual image, it doesn't tell me that it is 'mine' or that it is a 'body', but it's there and it's real, while the mental 'body' is not.

Yes! It is only thought that says something has appeared before and/or appeared exactly the same as before. How can this possibly be known? The following exercise on the body shows how this idea plays out and segues nicely into looking at the concept of time.

Look into the mirror throughout the day. Body image appears... notice that all that's really there are some colours, and a thought-story saying 'these colours are my body'

When you return to the mirror each time, consider whether these 'body colours' have ever appeared before.

Has this body image + story ever appeared before - or is this the only time you have ever been aware of these *exact* colours and this exact story about the body?

Can you find any previous appearances of the body? Where are they? If not how can it be known that the body has appeared before?

Is the appearance just appearing 'now' with only a thought-story claiming you've seen this body before?

Do that for today and report back what you find.

Are the sensations localized in space, like ‘going through the room’; OR is there only an image that is labelled ‘room’ and appearing sensations without any location?

There is an image labeled 'room' and sensations appearing and not suggesting any location.

Nice :)

Love, Kay

[Lagrange901]

Has this body image + story ever appeared before - or is this the only time you have ever been aware of these *exact* colours and this exact story about the body?

Everytime I look in the mirror, a new image is shown, and a new story appears, but the story is so subtle that I find it really hard to describe.

Can you find any previous appearances of the body? Where are they? If not how can it be known that the body has appeared before?

I can only find the image in the mirror, previous appearances are thoughts arising after the image is seen, it can only be known that the body has appeared when the story about it's apparition arises.

Is the appearance just appearing 'now' with only a thought-story claiming you've seen this body before?

Yes, it's a subtle thought that says : "This is me"
And it brings some mental image with it, that represents 'me'.


I don't know what 'me' really is. Sometimes the thoughts don't even say : 'me', it's just a strong sense of familiarity.
I notice that sometimes I expect to look in the mirror and see myself differently in some way, I expect to see myself as just an image without life or story, it's strange.
It's also strange that I call the image 'me' involuntarily but if I look close I know that it isn't me, I know it.
It can't be me.

[forgetmenot]

Hello Anders,

I don't know what 'me' really is. Sometimes the thoughts don't even say : 'me', it's just a strong sense of familiarity.
I notice that sometimes I expect to look in the mirror and see myself differently in some way, I expect to see myself as just an image without life or story, it's strange.
It's also strange that I call the image 'me' involuntarily but if I look close I know that it isn't me, I know it.
It can't be me.

Yes, there just is this "I AM". ...a knowing that you ARE, but there is no knowing what you are, as there is no thing to identify with/as.

So now let's look at the idea of time.

There is a general assumption that there is linear time that started (if started at all) somewhere very far in the past and advances to the distant future. The present moment (now) is considered to be a very small fragment of time, or an event that is moving forward on this linear time, coming from the past and advancing to the future.

But is there an experience that the ’now’ is moving along the line of time?
Any experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next?
Any actual experience of one event following another?

How fast is the ‘present moment’ actually moving?

Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began?
Can you find a point where it will end?

How long does the ‘now’ last?

Where does the ‘now’ start, and where does it end?

When does the ‘now’ exactly become the 'past'?

What is the ‘past’ in actual experience?

So is there actual experience of ‘time’ or thoughts about ‘time’?

Kay

[Lagrange901]

But is there an experience that the ’now’ is moving along the line of time?

In the now I cannot see any line of time, the line of time appears only when the thought of time appears.

Any experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next?

I cannot experience 'one moment' all I see is what is here, there are no moments giving way to next moments, only thoughts about moments.

Any actual experience of one event following another?

Even events are experienced as thoughts, I don't experience events but a thought comes up and creates the idea of an event, same with the chronological order between events.

How fast is the ‘present moment’ actually moving?

It's not moving, it's not even a thing, it's just what's here and what's here is not moving anywhere even if things change there is always something here.

Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began?

I cannot, all I know is that this moment is what's here, I don't know anything else through actual experience.

Can you find a point where it will end?

Only as a thought, but no true point of end, the present moment is just the here-ness that I am always experiencing.

How long does the ‘now’ last?

It doesn't last, I feel like it's both infinitesimally short and eternal at the same time. The now lasts only in thoughts, in actual experience the now does not move anywhere.

Where does the ‘now’ start, and where does it end?

I don't know, all I see is what is here, start and end are thoughts, without thinking about them I don't see any start/end.

When does the ‘now’ exactly become the 'past'?

Never, the past is just a thought arising in the now about some mental image.

What is the ‘past’ in actual experience?

A thought.

So is there actual experience of ‘time’ or thoughts about ‘time’?

There are only thoughts of time but no actual experience of time, and this is a thing that I've realized before, unlike other facts we've discussed.

[forgetmenot]

Hey Anders,

We have just about come to the end of our exploration in seeing how the seeming separate self is 'created'. Let's have a look at the idea of memory, for now, as past and memory go hand-in-hand as almost everybody believes that a memory thought is referring to something that has happened; that a memory thought is a different thought than a non-memory thought.

Please don’t go to thought explanation, but just let a memory be there, and look at it.

What is memory exactly?
What is the memory ‘made of’?

What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘memory’ thought?

WHEN does the memory actually appear?
How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘memory’ thought refers to something that has happened?

Then, look at a thought about the future.
What is the future thought ‘made of’?

WHEN does the future thought appear?
What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘future’ thought?
How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘future’ thought refers to something that will happen?

Then let’s compare a thought about the past and a thought about the future.
What is the EXACT difference between the thoughts about past and future?
If there is a difference, how is that difference known exactly?

Look at what is actually going on and not what thoughts say… but what actually is.

Kay

[forgetmenot]

Hello Anders....are you still with me here?

Kay

[Lagrange901]

What is memory exactly?

Memory is a thought-image followed by another thought that says it is in the past.

What is the memory ‘made of’?

I don't know, it's an appearance, like a thought.

What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘memory’ thought?

With the memory thought there comes another thought which tells a different story, but it is still a thought

WHEN does the memory actually appear?

After the mental image, the memory appears as another thought that says it is a memory about an event which happened in the past.

Then, look at a thought about the future.
What is the future thought ‘made of’?

It's a thought, I don't know what it is made of, in actuality there is nothing suggesting that it is made of something else but itself.

WHEN does the future thought appear?

Now

What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘future’ thought?

A next thought which says that it is a thought about the future.

How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘future’ thought refers to something that will happen?

Anothe thought is suggesting it, nothing more.

Then let’s compare a thought about the past and a thought about the future.
What is the EXACT difference between the thoughts about past and future?

A second thought who labels it past and future, along with other brief thoughts, the future thought feels less real, while the memory thought feels more real.

If there is a difference, how is that difference known exactly?

Through a thought, in actuality the thought of past and future is the same, just a mental image.

[forgetmenot]

Hi Anders,

So we can take stock of where we are at, here are some questions I would like for you to answer please.

Can you say with 100% certainty that you have realised that there is no separate self as it is thought to be?

If so, how does it feel to realise this?

Can you pinpoint when exactly you felt the shift when realisation happened, and how the shift itself was felt?

What has changed, if anything and what hasn't changed?

What is the main difference, if any, from before this exploration started?

Is seeking still going on?

Is there anything that you need clarified...anything you are not clear about?

Kay

[Lagrange901]

Can you say with 100% certainty that you have realised that there is no separate self as it is thought to be?

I still get caught up in the self, and believing in the self happens, but in the background I feel like I know that there are just thoughts appearing out of nowhere, whenever I look here, I see that there is no self, there is a strong feeling of being here, but no personal self.
And it feels like a background of peace, whatever may happen in life.

If so, how does it feel to realise this?

It doesn't feel like a realisation at all, it feels like common sense, but it is a feeling of liberation from being always SOMEBODY.
I feel like whatever may happen, it will not change this, I couls be depressed&sad for 100 years and it will still be here unchanged.

Can you pinpoint when exactly you felt the shift when realisation happened, and how the shift itself was felt?

I don't know, I don't remember the shift well, I think the realisation was seeing that in AE the self is nothing but thoughts. I don't feel "awakened" or like anything happened.

What has changed, if anything and what hasn't changed?

I don't really know, the only change is not believing in the separate "self" anymore, being a slave to the thought of self. But nothing really changed.

What is the main difference, if any, from before this exploration started?

Not a big change, I feel like my realization didn't happen in a moment, but over time and moments. This exploration thought me to look at thoughts and See that there are just thoughts and no self, simple.

Is seeking still going on?

I don't know what to seek.. I don't know what I am, I don't know what This is, I know that it is and I am.
The mind can seek whatever it wants, I can seek forever, the fact that there is no me in thoughts is simple and obvious, nothing to seek there.
Seeking happens in thoughts, and I can still do it.

Is there anything that you need clarified...anything you are not clear about?

I don't feel detached from the world, I don't feel a "no-self" state. I don't even know if I realized something or not to be honest. But I know for sure that everything I believe about "me" is just thought, stories, not real.
And I am real and I have nothing to say about me that would not be a story other than I am, right now.

I want to thank you for helping and guiding me, I don't know if the exploration is over, maybe this exploration is over but I feel like it has begun not ended.
Thank you.

[forgetmenot]

Hello Anders,

Can you say with 100% certainty that you have realised that there is no separate self as it is thought to be?

I still get caught up in the self, and believing in the self happens, but in the background I feel like I know that there are just thoughts appearing out of nowhere, whenever I look here, I see that there is no self, there is a strong feeling of being here, but no personal self.
And it feels like a background of peace, whatever may happen in life.

Talking about “feels” like, is just thought. When you LOOK can you actually find a separate self. What is it exactly that “still gets caught up in the self”?

And this "background of peace" you are referring to...is that your experience 24/7, or is it an understanding?

If so, how does it feel to realise this?

It doesn't feel like a realisation at all, it feels like common sense, but it is a feeling of liberation from being always SOMEBODY.

And how does that liberation feel exactly? How does it FEEL to feel liberated from being a somebody?

I feel like whatever may happen, it will not change this, I couls be depressed&sad for 100 years and it will still be here unchanged.

Could not change what exactly? I don't know what "this' you are referring to.

Can you pinpoint when exactly you felt the shift when realisation happened, and how the shift itself was felt?

I don't know, I don't remember the shift well, I think the realisation was seeing that in AE the self is nothing but thoughts. I don't feel "awakened" or like anything happened.

The realisation is a shift in perception. How you perceive yourself, how you perceive life and how you perceive others. Has anything changed here or is it still the same?

What has changed, if anything and what hasn't changed?

I don't really know, the only change is not believing in the separate "self" anymore, being a slave to the thought of self. But nothing really changed.

If you really don’t know then I would have to question if you really had the realisation.

What is the main difference, if any, from before this exploration started?

Not a big change, I feel like my realization didn't happen in a moment, but over time and moments. This exploration thought me to look at thoughts and See that there are just thoughts and no self, simple.

And so what happens when you go about your daily life now?

Is seeking still going on?

I don't know what to seek.. I don't know what I am, I don't know what This is, I know that it is and I am.
The mind can seek whatever it wants, I can seek forever, the fact that there is no me in thoughts is simple and obvious, nothing to seek there.
Seeking happens in thoughts, and I can still do it.

The question was a yes or no answer really….is seeking still going on? You did not answer that question. You are aware of the seeking I am talking about..is that still going on or not?

I want to thank you for helping and guiding me, I don't know if the exploration is over, maybe this exploration is over but I feel like it has begun not ended.

I don’t think that you have had the realisation that the self that you think you are is a concept. You have deepened your understanding of what this means…but as you cannot pinpoint when you actually had the aha moment and as you can’t really tell me what has changed and what hasn’t…other than you being more aware of the nature of thoughts….then your exploring and looking has not concluded.

I don’t know where you would like to go from here…but I would suggest that you reread your thread and redo the exercises. The exercises weren’t given as just a once off…they take many lookings to actually see.

Love, Kay

[Lagrange901]

Talking about “feels” like, is just thought. When you LOOK can you actually find a separate self. What is it exactly that “still gets caught up in the self”?

And this "background of peace" you are referring to...is that your experience 24/7, or is it an understanding?

When I look I cannot find any self.

The background of peace is my experience regardless of what feelings come up.

And how does that liberation feel exactly? How does it FEEL to feel liberated from being a somebody?

It's freedom. That's what it feels like.

Could not change what exactly? I don't know what "this' you are referring to.

The freedom.

The realisation is a shift in perception. How you perceive yourself, how you perceive life and how you perceive others. Has anything changed here or is it still the same?

The knowing of "me" being a thought was not always present, I feel free from ideas about myself. But really nothing has changed in my experience, except the false belief that there is an experiencer.

If you really don’t know then I would have to question if you really had the realisation.

AE is still the same AE, with or without the thought of self, that's why I don't know how to tell what changed in terms of AE, because everything is the same. About the belief in a self very much has changed, and it feels like freedom, but I don't think it happened only in my exploration with you, but gradually throughout the last 2 years, with moments of realization.

And so what happens when you go about your daily life now?

Still what happened before, but every day is different.
I don't feel like anything new is happening.
It's more like I've lost a central belief in my life, and the perspective changed.

The question was a yes or no answer really….is seeking still going on? You did not answer that question. You are aware of the seeking I am talking about..is that still going on or not?

I am not seeking a realization of no-self and not seeking myself anymore, but I cannot tell when it happened.
When I answer like that is because I am writing my thoughts and confusion, I know that maybe it doesn't always make sense to others... I'm confused because I am seeing that I don't even know what seeking was, even seeking is a thought. Thank you for being patient.

[forgetmenot]

Hello Anders,

Thank you for your responses. It is important that you noticed/recognised your shift in perception, otherwise, it would just be an intellectual deepening and that is not the purpose of your coming to LU. The following questions are given to everyone who has come to this point, in the exploration, as a means to gauge clarity, shift in perception and recognition of no separate self as it is thought to be. Once it is clear that you are clear, you will be invited to LU aftercare Facebook groups.

So can you answer the following questions with some detail please, and answer what's true for you rather than any sort of 'ideal' answer. Also please provide examples where asked.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

6) Anything to add?

Kay