Please, help me see this once for all

[nothingness]

Hi Verananda,

so it is emotions (labled "bad" by thought)
I guess some thought?
anything else?
Can you find an ego in this backlash?

Just thoughts and sensations. Ego and ego backlash are just concepts.

"in its awareness" -> in the awareness of the body? Is this perceptible?
and this proof is based on thought?
do I understand right?
anything else?

There is this perception of what is going on, which I'm calling awareness. In this perception, there are thoughts, and sensations of the body reacting to these thoughts. As the body seems to be the only one perceiving these thoughts, and as I perceive these thoughts, I infer that I'm the body.

I know there is a lot of beliefs in this sentence. I'm working on it but, to be honest, it is my current understanding, and how I feel.

Best,
Nelson

[Verananda]

Hi Nelson,

you are doing good! Thank you beeing honest - thats important in this investigation!

In this perception, there are thoughts, and sensations of the body

right. thats the direct experience

reacting to these thoughts. As the body seems to be the only one perceiving these thoughts, and as I perceive these thoughts, I infer that I'm the body.

can you see this in direct experience?
This connection between thought and reaction?
And that the body perceives thought?
Or is this part the "thought about"?
Some beliefs are very old and often thought, but that does not imply that they are true!


we do one experiment here - take some time for it:

1. Place both hands on a table in front of you, palms down.
2. When you have done that, rest for a moment and then raise one hand in the air but not the other.
Don't go to thoughts, examine your direct experience.
Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:
What is it exactly that is choosing which hand to raise?
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is doing the choosing?
What is it that is controlling the hand?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
Can anything be found that makes the hand move?
How is the decision made?

Looking forward to your findings ......
Warmly
Verananda

[nothingness]

Hi Verananda,

I'm still investigating this. I'll probably answer tomorrow.

Thank you.

Best,
Nelson

[nothingness]

Hi Verananda,

can you see this in direct experience?
This connection between thought and reaction?
And that the body perceives thought?
Or is this part the "thought about"?
Some beliefs are very old and often thought, but that does not imply that they are true!

In direct experience, there are thoughts, and there are reactions, it is not possible to see that the reactions happen because of thoughts. It could be just that thoughts and reactions are "outputs of the system".

But this is tricky and I'm still stuck in it. I believe that I'm this body because this body seems to be the only one with access to these perceptions, and as I have access so these perceptions, I'm the body. For example, if my eyes are closed, and I speak "I'm seeing just blackness", it seems that the body has access to this perception (the blackness), and as I have access to this perception, I'm the body.

As I was writing this answer crossed my mind the ideia that, yes, the body seems to have access to these perceptions, or some form of it, but how do I know that is just the body who is having this access? Couldn't be the whole Universe?

I will investigate this.

we do one experiment here - take some time for it:

1. Place both hands on a table in front of you, palms down.
2. When you have done that, rest for a moment and then raise one hand in the air but not the other.
Don't go to thoughts, examine your direct experience.
Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:
What is it exactly that is choosing which hand to raise?
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is doing the choosing?
What is it that is controlling the hand?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
Can anything be found that makes the hand move?
How is the decision made?

I can't find a chooser or controller doing the choosing. Generally, the decisions (thoughts) just pop-up from nowhere and the hand is raised. Sometimes there isn't even a thought about it, or at least I was not able to notice it.

Best,
Nelson

[Verananda]

first we do one more experinment:

Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes.
Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images:
Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?
Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?
Is there an inside or an outside?
If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?
What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?
Look very carefully, especially with the last question. Take your time, don’t rush. You can
look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering,
having a short break from work, walking, etc) before replying.

contiue with the following questions not before finishing the experiment above!

In direct experience, there are thoughts, and there are reactions, it is not possible to see that the reactions happen because of thoughts.

:-)

It could be just that thoughts and reactions are "outputs of the system".

this is thought? or is it seen?
stay with the real experience, no suspicions

I believe that I'm this body because this body seems to be the only one with access to these perceptions, and as I have access so these perceptions, I'm the body. For example, if my eyes are closed, and I speak "I'm seeing just blackness", it seems that the body has access to this perception (the blackness), and as I have access to this perception, I'm the body.

what of this is thought / old belief?
what is real experienced?
there is perception ... seeing, hearing, sensing ..... anything more you can find in DE?
can you find "body" in DE? or just perception/ sensation?
there is seeing of the blackness with closed eyes. anything more in DE?
Sort out a bit apart what is really experienced and what are added thoughts!

but how do I know that is just the body who is having this access? Couldn't be the whole Universe?

good question. what is your actual answere?


Love ve

[nothingness]

Hi Verananda,

Amazing experiment and questions! It seems that everything is known by being it...

I'll practice for some days and then answer.

Thank you.

Best,
Nelson

[nothingness]

Hi Verananda,

I'm still practicing, and I'll answer your post completely, but I've noticed that I'm stuck in this part:

Is there an inside or an outside?
If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?

I'm the body because I only have access to sensations that are inside the of the skin, but not to those that happen outside, like sensations in other bodies.

But looking carefully there is just this seeing (images), and thoughts make sense of it, projecting objects and bodies in it. Besides that, there are expectations (more thoughts) that if I'm the whole, I should be feeling everything, and if I'm not the body, I shouldn't be felling it.

I'm pretty confused...

Best,
Nelson

[Verananda]

But looking carefully there is just this seeing (images), and thoughts make sense of it, projecting objects and bodies in it.

Thats the truth. That is what is realy perceived,

Besides that, there are expectations (more thoughts) that if I'm the whole, I should be feeling everything, and if I'm not the body, I shouldn't be felling it.
I'm the body because I only have access to sensations that are inside the of the skin, but not to those that happen outside, like sensations in other bodies.

yes all this is thought. Old belief that build the illusion of a separate self - I and the others - . it just prevents new experiences. Confusion is a good sign. It shows that old beliefes are stirred up.

Put all this beside for some time and do the exercise. With the curiosity of a little child. Look what you find without assumption mixed in.

love ve

[nothingness]

Hi Verananda,

The actual experience seems more of a space where perceptions can happen. Between these perceptions, there are thoughts, including mental images, especially of the body, and beliefs about absolutely everything. These beliefs seem to get in the way of seeing things just the way they are. One of the most prevalent beliefs seems to be of a seer, it is there all the time.

I'll continue practicing these exercise trying to sort out what is belief and what is actual experience, and then answer you.

Thank you, Verananda.

Best,
Nelson

[Verananda]

great!

Between these perceptions, there are thoughts, ...

.

Can these thoughts (belief-thought, mental-image-thought, I-thought, other-thought, xyz-thought) simply be perceived like everything else?

One of the most prevalent beliefs seems to be of a seer, it is there all the time.

but know it is seen als a belief, a thought - any other proof that this seer is real?

continue practicing .....
love ve

[Verananda]

Hi Nelson,

how are you doing?

Love Ve

[nothingness]

Hi Verananda,

I've been sick for some days. I've practiced this for a while, and there were many insights since then. It seems that the mind creates a solid entity where there is just perceiving. For example, the mind says that "I'm seeing this notebook", but there is just the seeing of this moment - including the image of the body, notebook, etc - and images can't see anything.

On the other hand, it seems that these insights are not taken sufficiently serious to provoke any significant change. In this sense, I've been also asking myself if "Is this experience of experiencing this moment happening to someone or no one?", because it still has some impact on me.

Anyway, these insights seem to be slowly opening myself to the possibility that really there is no "I".

So, here are the answers:

Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes.
Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images:
Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?
Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?
Is there an inside or an outside?
If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?
What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?

"Body" is an idea, and it is agreed that its height ends in the upper sensation, or the top of the head's image. A similar thing can be said about its volume, shape, etc. So, it is kind of arbitrary to say that there is an inside and outside of the body.

What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

It is more of a space where perceptions can happen, including the idea of a body.

"It could be just that thoughts and reactions are outputs of the system".
this is thought? or is it seen?

This can't be affirmed because thoughts seem to just arise.

"but how do I know that is just the body who is having this access? Couldn't be the whole Universe?"
good question. what is your actual answere?

It is arbitrary to say that is just the body (or the whole universe) who has access to these perceptions, there are just perceptions.

Can these thoughts (belief-thought, mental-image-thought, I-thought, other-thought, xyz-thought) simply be perceived like everything else?

This is difficult. It seems that they are still perceived as "my thoughts", and so they are still able to annoy me. (as I was writing this I asked to myself "but who is annoyed?" - no one, there is just thoughts and sensations. I understand this, I just don't feel it...). I guess you've already heard this phrase many times :)

I will have to focus a little more on work in the next weeks, so I'll probably answer at ever two days, ok?!

Thank you for your patience, and sorry for the long post, Verananda.

Best,
Nelson

[Verananda]

Hi Nelson,

I hope you are well again !
Illness can be a good field for investigation!

Good insights that you found.

In this sense, I've been also asking myself if "Is this experience of experiencing this moment happening to someone or no one?", because it still has some impact on me.

... and a good question!
just look!
If you are looking for this someone or no one what do you find?
not thinking, looking!
What is this " impact on me"?

"Body" is an idea, and it is agreed that its height ends in the upper sensation, or the top of the head's image.

yes, it is an idea. so what do you find in direct experience with cosed eyes?
can you find anything about height, volume, shape etc? or are there just sensations?

It is more of a space where perceptions can happen, including the idea of a body.

experiencing sensations ... anything more?

"It could be just that thoughts and reactions are outputs of the system".
this is thought? or is it seen?

This can't be affirmed because thoughts seem to just arise.

so then it is thought? because nothing else can be found?

This is difficult. It seems that they are still perceived as "my thoughts", and so they are still able to annoy me. (as I was writing this I asked to myself "but who is annoyed?" - no one, there is just thoughts and sensations. I understand this, I just don't feel it...). I guess you've already heard this phrase many times :)

what makes a thought to be "my thought"?
can thoughts do anything? like anoying etc? wouldn't this be just another thought ("Im annoyed about ...!!!")
and .. yes ... no one can be found who is annoyed.
understanding dosen't help.
you wrote "I just don't feel it" .. what is the expectation? what do you want to feel and how would it feel?
but: all feelings are ok, like all thoughts, who should judge about?
what helps is to see "there is just thoughts and sensations".
and keep looking for this, even if it is mentaly clear and once seen that there is no I, looking again and again helps to overcome all these old beliefs ..... report how you are doing with this and if/what changes!


Love Ve

[Verananda]

how are you doing?

Love Ve

[nothingness]

Thank you so much for your attention and kindness, Verananda. I was waiting for some time alone to investigate it deeper.

I'll report tomorrow. But about expectations:

you wrote "I just don't feel it" .. what is the expectation? what do you want to feel and how would it feel?

Honestly, I'm expecting to see, with no doubt, that there is no separated I, that everything is just one and divine thing. And from this, to let go of this constant need to try to control everything, and this non-stop self-criticism. Finally being able to just be in each moment in the way it is, and enjoy it, without resistance.

Best,
Nelson