Liberation

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Suzanne68
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Re: Liberation

Postby Suzanne68 » Tue Dec 18, 2018 1:41 am

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can.
Label daily activities simply colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/colour
Smelling coffee, simply = smell,
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation.
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought.

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all actual experience) and report back how you go.
I drank my first cup of coffee this way and I had to bring myself back many times. It’s not easy!
I try to do this in « in between «  activities, such as going to get food or going to the photocopy machine. I would say something like: walking, seeing colleague, hearing keyboards click, smelling perfume, walking, thinking, and so on. But it is really difficult to stay in this mode for long.

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adilerten
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Re: Liberation

Postby adilerten » Tue Dec 18, 2018 1:22 pm

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can.
Label daily activities simply colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/colour
Smelling coffee, simply = smell,
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation.
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought.

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all actual experience) and report back how you go.
I drank my first cup of coffee this way and I had to bring myself back many times. It’s not easy!
I try to do this in « in between «  activities, such as going to get food or going to the photocopy machine. I would say something like: walking, seeing colleague, hearing keyboards click, smelling perfume, walking, thinking, and so on. But it is really difficult to stay in this mode for long.
Come on, it is not hard, it is the most simple - direct form of describing "what is"
We need to make more of this excercise if it is ok for you..
But please write just like i gave you the format of the exercise.
It is important for you to understand LOOKING instead of thinking and focusing to the direct experience rather than the story of if.
We need to make some effortless effort and focused dedicated work here to improve.
And you don't need to do it all day :)

Look let me break down some more for you

"Oh such a wonderful sunset" = Colour + thought
"How shall i pay the telephone bill it's too much this month" = thought
"Such a tasty hamburger" = Taste + thought


And here is a brief explanation what are we trying to see

When you watch a sunset, there are two things going on:
1. The actual experience of "Seeing"
2. The commentary about what is being seen "I am watching a sunset", "How beautiful", "Look at the colours, the depth..." etc etc

When you listen to sounds, there are two things going on:
1. The actual experience of "hearing"
2. The commentary about what is being heard "Truck" "I wonder where that aeroplane is going" " Wow, the birds sound so happy today" etc etc

So what is happening is, in all the (1.'s) above there is direct experience. (seeing, hearing).

All the (2.'s) above, there is thought commentary about what is being experienced - about an object being seen, heard, felt. For instance a "sunset" being seen by an "I", a "truck" being heard by an "I"

In all the (1.'s) there is no "I". In all the (2.'s) an "I" appears.
In the (2.s) seems like there is a "someone" and a "something".

summary is:
1. There is an image /shape/colour/taste/sensation. This is direct seeing.
2. There is labelling that happens AFTER all the seeing is done.
By this time the image has been "processed" and now we have "objects" labelled from the initial image.

Ok?
So please now send me some of your labelled direct experiences also.

Waiting for your answers
Sending much love.
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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adilerten
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Re: Liberation

Postby adilerten » Tue Dec 18, 2018 1:35 pm

But what about speech? I do decide to say something at some point. Isn't there some sort of decision/ control over that?
Very good question ;)
Also let's look at this;

1. Place both hands on a table in front of you, palms down.
2. When you have done that, rest for a moment and then raise one hand in the air but not the other.

Don't go to thoughts, examine your direct experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:-

What is it exactly that is choosing which hand to raise? Why that hand but not the other ?
And also..
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is doing the choosing?
What is it that is controlling the hand?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
Can anything be found that makes the hand move?
How is the decision made?
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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Suzanne68
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Re: Liberation

Postby Suzanne68 » Wed Dec 19, 2018 3:04 am

Come on, it is not hard, it is the most simple - direct form of describing "what is"
We need to make more of this excercise if it is ok for you..
But please write just like i gave you the format of the exercise.
It is important for you to understand LOOKING instead of thinking and focusing to the direct experience rather than the story of if.
We need to make some effortless effort and focused dedicated work here to improve.
And you don't need to do it all day :)

Look let me break down some more for you

"Oh such a wonderful sunset" = Colour + thought
"How shall i pay the telephone bill it's too much this month" = thought
"Such a tasty hamburger" = Taste + thought

And here is a brief explanation what are we trying to see

When you watch a sunset, there are two things going on:
1. The actual experience of "Seeing"
2. The commentary about what is being seen "I am watching a sunset", "How beautiful", "Look at the colours, the depth..." etc etc

When you listen to sounds, there are two things going on:
1. The actual experience of "hearing"
2. The commentary about what is being heard "Truck" "I wonder where that aeroplane is going" " Wow, the birds sound so happy today" etc etc

So what is happening is, in all the (1.'s) above there is direct experience. (seeing, hearing).

All the (2.'s) above, there is thought commentary about what is being experienced - about an object being seen, heard, felt. For instance a "sunset" being seen by an "I", a "truck" being heard by an "I"

In all the (1.'s) there is no "I". In all the (2.'s) an "I" appears.
In the (2.s) seems like there is a "someone" and a "something"

summary is:
1. There is an image /shape/colour/taste/sensation. This is direct seeing.
2. There is labelling that happens AFTER all the seeing is done.
By this time the image has been "processed" and now we have "objects" labelled from the initial image.
Good evening Adil,
I know it’s simple to do but it’s difficult to stay focused in that way of looking without loosing being caught up in some thoughts.
So here goes:
Looking at the wall
Thinking that it needs a picture on it. Thinking of my father who’s paintings are in a closet. Missing my dead father.
Seeing the sky
Thinking that the days are getting shorter and shorter in winter.
Hearing a sound
Thinking car.
Hearing sound
Labeling engine starting
Hearing a plane roar
Thinking about pollution and judging travellers
Hearing sound
Wondering what it could be
Tasting coffee
Thinking that I love coffee in the morning and that it’s one of my favourite moment of the day.
Seeing my child
Wondering if he’s ok.
Sensing coolness
Thinking that winter is long and cold and unpleasant.

Metta,
MC

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Suzanne68
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Re: Liberation

Postby Suzanne68 » Wed Dec 19, 2018 3:16 am

Looking at the wall
Thinking that it needs a picture on it. Thinking of my father who’s paintings are in a closet. Missing my dead father. Sight + though + memory + feeling
Seeing the sky
Thinking that the days are getting shorter and shorter in winter. Sight+commentary
Hearing a sound
Thinking car. Hearing + label
Hearing sound
Labeling engine starting hearing + label
Hearing a plane roar
Thinking about pollution and judging travellers hearing + thought + opinion
Hearing sound
Wondering what it could be hearing + thinking
Tasting coffee
Thinking that I love coffee in the morning and that it’s one of my favourite moment of the day. Taste + thought
Seeing my child
Wondering if he’s ok. Sight + thinking + worrying
Sensing coolness
Thinking that winter is long and cold and unpleasant sensation + thought

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Suzanne68
Posts: 101
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:13 am

Re: Liberation

Postby Suzanne68 » Wed Dec 19, 2018 3:41 am

1. Place both hands on a table in front of you, palms down.
2. When you have done that, rest for a moment and then raise one hand in the air but not the other.

Don't go to thoughts, examine your direct experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:-

What is it exactly that is choosing which hand to raise? Why that hand but not the other ?
And also..
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is doing the choosing?
What is it that is controlling the hand?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
Can anything be found that makes the hand move?
How is the decision made?
one that, rest for a moment and then raise one hand in the air but not the other.

Don't go to thoughts, examine your direct experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:-

What is it exactly that is choosing which hand to raise? Why that hand but not the other ?
And also..
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is doing the choosing?
What is it that is A controlling the hand?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
Can anything be found that makes the hand move?
How is the decision made?
What is it exactly that is choosing which hand to raise? Why that hand but not the other ?
And also..>>> my brain fired a command: raise the right hand.
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is doing the choosing? >>>no, I can’t.
What is it that is A controlling the hand? Brain and impulse?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located? No I can’t find a contoller in my head calling the shots from the director’s chair 🙂
Can anything be found that makes the hand move? No
How is the decision made? Thought + action ?

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adilerten
Posts: 1227
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2016 5:33 pm

Re: Liberation

Postby adilerten » Wed Dec 19, 2018 1:00 pm

Thank you for your answers Suzanne,
Let's look
Thinking that it needs a picture on it. Thinking of my father who’s paintings are in a closet. Missing my dead father. Sight + though + memory + feeling
What is a memory but a thought?
IS memory thought different than other thought or is it just a thought like all other thoughts ?
Is it speacial ?


Seeing the sky
Thinking that the days are getting shorter and shorter in winter. Sight+commentary
What is commentary ? It is a thought right ?

Very good.

You understood what i wanted from you but let me simplify your experiences,

Thinking that it needs a picture on it. Thinking of my father who’s paintings are in a closet. Missing my dead father.

Seeing + (Thought (thought labels and thought commentary is simply thought)

Seeing the sky
Thinking that the days are getting shorter and shorter in winter.
Sight+commentary (Yes indeed! :)

Hearing a sound
Thinking car. Hearing + label (Sure it is. Label is again thought)

Hearing sound
Labeling engine starting hearing + label (yes sound + thought)

Hearing a plane roar
Thinking about pollution and judging travellers hearing + thought + opinion
(sound + thought..Opinion is also thought right ?)

Hearing sound
Wondering what it could be hearing + thinking (YES)
Tasting coffee (Taste + Coffee is also a thought label right ? again simply thought)

Thinking that I love coffee in the morning and that it’s one of my favourite moment of the day. Taste + thought
(if you taste and comment yes other wise its all thought )

Seeing my child
Wondering if he’s ok. Sight + thinking + worrying
(sigh+thought) (worrying thoughts are also thoughts right ? Is worrying thoughts special ? are they different than pleasant thoughts ? If you say they are different how they are different ?
Sensing coolness
Thinking that winter is long and cold and unpleasant sensation + thought (yes indeed:)

Thank you for focusing and making this exercise.
Now you see how thoughts label direct experiences and how stories comes out of them right ?
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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adilerten
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Re: Liberation

Postby adilerten » Wed Dec 19, 2018 1:11 pm

my brain fired a command: raise the right hand.
How can you know that "your brain" fired a command ?
Because a thought says so ?
What is the actual experience of a brain ?

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is doing the choosing? >>>no, I can’t.

How is the decision made? Thought + action ?
Yes sure there is action and thought mechanism involved, but can you see how automatic hand arise then labelling kicks in ?
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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Suzanne68
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Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:13 am

Re: Liberation

Postby Suzanne68 » Thu Dec 20, 2018 12:46 pm

Now you see how thoughts label direct experiences and how stories comes out of them right ?
Hi and good morning!
Yes i see that! And it does get easier to do with practice. Although you seem to make a difference between thought and commentary.
Are referring to verbal commentary? Because if I’m just saying that I’m my head, it would be just thought, right?
So yes I get they’re all thoughts, although the feeling tone can be different.

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Suzanne68
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Re: Liberation

Postby Suzanne68 » Thu Dec 20, 2018 12:51 pm

Ok I just read that commentary is also thought.
Makes sense! So everyone thing that the mind produces is thought. Right? Mind’s nature is thought.
Thank you
MC

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Suzanne68
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Re: Liberation

Postby Suzanne68 » Thu Dec 20, 2018 1:01 pm

How can you know that "your brain" fired a command ?
Because a thought says so ?
What is the actual experience of a brain ?
I don’t know for sure that my brain fire a command, although i this that the general scientific consensus around that explains this phenomenon. But Yes, it’s because a thought said so. Thought about the phenomenon.
Good question,
What is the actual experience of a brain...
thinking? Processing information received by sensations? Coordinating all bodily functions ?

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Suzanne68
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Re: Liberation

Postby Suzanne68 » Thu Dec 20, 2018 1:10 pm

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is doing the choosing? >>>no, I can’t.

How is the decision made? Thought + action ?
Yes sure there is action and thought mechanism involved, but can you see how automatic hand arise then labelling kicks in ?
Yes I see the automatism of thought kicking in right away. I’m starting to be more conscious of this immediate response to actual experience.
But I still think the brain is involved. And no, I can’t find a me that orchestrated the brain process either.

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Suzanne68
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Re: Liberation

Postby Suzanne68 » Thu Dec 20, 2018 1:23 pm

Here’s a question:
Is there always actual experience preceding thought? For example, I’m sitting quietly doing nothing, for example. Just resting. All of a sudden I become conscious that I’m lost in an internal conversation or fantasy about something. It just popped out of nowhere. There was no direct experience prior. Is that possible? Thoughts just popping because I was in idle mode( doing nothing in particular)?

Metta
MC

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adilerten
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Re: Liberation

Postby adilerten » Thu Dec 20, 2018 1:30 pm

What is the actual experience of a brain...
thinking? Processing information received by sensations? Coordinating all bodily functions ?
direct experiences are:
color-sound-smell-taste-touch - sensations - thought.
Can you touch hear smell taste see brain producing thoughts ?
Or you can only have ideas (thoughts) about it ?
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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adilerten
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Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2016 5:33 pm

Re: Liberation

Postby adilerten » Thu Dec 20, 2018 1:32 pm

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is doing the choosing? >>>no, I can’t.

How is the decision made? Thought + action ?
Yes sure there is action and thought mechanism involved, but can you see how automatic hand arise then labelling kicks in ?
Yes I see the automatism of thought kicking in right away. I’m starting to be more conscious of this immediate response to actual experience.
But I still think the brain is involved. And no, I can’t find a me that orchestrated the brain process either.
Your answer is in your words:
But I still "THINK" the brain is involved
Also we will be looking at these on the next post on our chapter of "solidity of the body"
;)
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha


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