The Gate

That clip is a very nice one indeed, I remember seeing it in highschool psychology, never connected it with a "no self" yet though.

Great! Is the experience (ie sensation in this case) and the awareness of the sensation two things? Is there experience AND awareness, or is experience self-aware without a separate thing which is aware?

"Experience of sensation" is a label of an AE of sensation. There is no separate experience from the sensation. Experience itself is self-aware without any outside agency experiencing it.

In 'hearing' can anything be found other than sound?

There is only sound

Can what is doing the hearing be found? Or is there only sound?

You cannot find what is doing the hearing, only sound.

Can an 'I', a 'body’, a ‘person' be found? Or are there only thoughts about these, and thoughts about a ‘something’ that is hearing sound?What do you find?

No "I" no "me" no "mine" no "body" no "person" there is just sound that is self-aware.

Where does sound stop and the ‘hearing’ of it begin?Can a 'hearer' ever be found in sound? Or is there simply sound?

There is no hearing of a sound, only sound. There is no hearer of a sound, simply sound.

If no INHERENT HEARER is found . . . so would anything suggested as the hearer be anything other than speculation / ideas / beliefs / thoughts etc?

A hearer doing the hearing is only a thought, belief, idea, speculation.

Are you ever aware of two experiences or more at 'any given time'? When sound shows up, is there a 'sound experience' and a 'knowing of sound' experience?

There are not two experiences, only AE of sound itself.

Hi Anthony,

Can you answer the following questions with some detail please, and answer what's true for you, rather than any sort of 'ideal' answer. Also please provide examples where asked.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? Give an example from your own recent experiences to how things happens and how things work.
b) What are you responsible for?
c) Give examples from your own recent experiences to how all this works.

6) Anything to add?

Kay

Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

In actual, present experience of sight, sound, sensation and thought, there is no "I" in any way shape or form. It is only a thought, an idea, a speculation. There is presently no self, there never was a a self, there never will be a self.

Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now.

The belief of a self starts due to conditioning by parents at a young age, when you are taught that there is a "you" inside the body, controlling it, choosing things, acting, moving, preferring, imagining, hoping. It is then reinforced, believed, trusted, accepted and unquestioned throughout most of life. The "I" is a very convenient subject in language for communication, but is not found in actual experience. It is only a thought. And no thought can be "me" just as a sound, sight, or smell is not "I." Thoughts including an "I," such as "I walk," show up in thought, but thought is not viewed by a "me."

How does it feel to see this?

It is like seeing reality for the first time, but, simultaneously, nothing has changed. Sights, sounds, "good" feelings,
"bad" feelings, sensations and thoughts still occur, no difference there. There just is no "I" to be found in experience of a sight, sound, feeling, thought. It is almost looking at things nakedly without a filter before it.

What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

Prior to this conversation I could reason that there may not be no self, but looking in actual experience and finding ONLY actual experience without an experiencer OF it has changed my perception, in that it is seen to be just perception.

What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

It may have been one of the most recent messages, "Is there experience AND awareness, or is experience self-aware without a separate thing which is aware?" There was kind of a "aha!" and a resting in self-aware experience as it is. I feel like one of the final beliefs that I held onto was "I am the awareness of phenomena" as a separate impersonal "being" aware of sights, sounds, sensations, thoughts. However, there is no separate awareness of experience/sensation, only experience/sensation itself.

Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.

Deciding, choosing, intending, controlling need time to be real for them to work, and a thing which decides, chooses, intends, controls. In actual present moments of experience, there is no one choosing what phenomena arises, there is only experience of the senses and thoughts. There is no one who decides what sensory object to be aware of, there is only awareness of one sense at a time. There cannot be free will if there is no one who chooses, decides, intends. Free will is only a belief that is dependent upon a being with willpower. There is no separate being with willpower, there is only actual experience without any alternatives.

What makes things happen? How does it work? Give an example from your own recent experiences to how things happens and how things work.

What makes actual experience happen? There is contact of an eye with an object of sight, same with ear and sound, tongue and taste, "mind" and thought. This contact plus awareness is called seeing, hearing, sensing, thinking. How does actual experience work? When a body and sensory objects contact, there is consciousness of it. When an eye sees a sight, there is seeing. There is no body controlling the seeing, there is no sight controlling the seeing, there is no consciousness or awareness controlling the seeing, there is just the seeing. It is mutually co-dependent without any outside agency, such as a God, or personal agent like a soul controlling it. It simply is.

What are you responsible for?

"I" is a thought that cannot be responsible, accountable, presiding over, or controlling of anything. Just as the thought "apple" is not responsible for anything or controlling of anything, it is just a thought. There is no hierarchy of one thought that has control and one that cannot. Responsibility, as in being in charge, cannot apply to something that is only a thought. A thought is not in charge or anything.

Give examples from your own recent experiences to how all this works.

When this head is facing one way, the only object of sight is the one which is present. When the head is looking elsewhere, the only sight is still the one which is seen. The pointer, "If you cannot choose what is presently sensed, what choice do you have at all?" is a great tool.

Anything to add?

Sometimes a feeling, or thought that I am not quite there, not quite sure or totally 100% convinced of the existence of no-self arises. If an estimation were to be given, it'd be around 95% certain that there is no self. But that strong 5% seems to want more, likes it's missing out on something. Id like to talk a little more and remove these final doubts,even though I'm not exactly sure what the doubts themselves are.

Hi Anthony,

What makes things happen? How does it work? Give an example from your own recent experiences to how things happens and how things work.

What makes actual experience happen? There is contact of an eye with an object of sight, same with ear and sound, tongue and taste, "mind" and thought. This contact plus awareness is called seeing, hearing, sensing, thinking. How does actual experience work? When a body and sensory objects contact, there is consciousness of it. When an eye sees a sight, there is seeing. There is no body controlling the seeing, there is no sight controlling the seeing, there is no consciousness or awareness controlling the seeing, there is just the seeing. It is mutually co-dependent without any outside agency, such as a God, or personal agent like a soul controlling it. It simply is.

Could you answer this question again please. This question is in reference to decision, intention, free will, choice and control. Can you talk a bit about what makes things happen? How do these work, and give an example from your own experiences to how things happen and how they work.

Sometimes a feeling, or thought that I am not quite there, not quite sure or totally 100% convinced of the existence of no-self arises. If an estimation were to be given, it'd be around 95% certain that there is no self. But that strong 5% seems to want more, likes it's missing out on something. Id like to talk a little more and remove these final doubts,even though I'm not exactly sure what the doubts themselves are.

Make sure you LOOK to see what it is exactly that is "not quite sure or totally 100% convinced of the existence of no-self". It's at times like this that it is important to LOOK. Continuing to LOOK is the key.

Although having the realisation that there is no separate self happens, there will be a period of yo-yoing between clarity and doubt. There will still be beliefs and patterns that are rooted in the idea of being a separate self that will need clearing, as not everything gets rewritten in one big hit...so yo-yoing happens. Seeing through the illusory self is one of many realisations…albeit the main on, however, you will need to continue to LOOK every day to ‘strengthen’ the seeing. How can many years of ‘thinking’ you are a separate self dissolve in a few weeks or months?

Once it is clear that you have clearly seen through the separate self, there is another LU forum where you can ask for further investigation to deepen the seeing, if you so wish.

Kay

This question is in reference to decision, intention, free will, choice and control. Can you talk a bit about what makes things happen? How do these work, and give an example from your own experiences to how things happen and how they work.

In direct, actual experience, choices aren't made by "me" nor are they "mine". The thought "choosing" which is just the labelling of qualities, pops up in thought, but there is not an object that is doing the "choosing" or thinking. Color, sound, taste, and thought do not have the ability to "choose." You cannot find a chooser, intender, or controller in actual experience. You cannot choose to not see, hear, feel, think, what is present.

There is nothing controlling sight, sound, sensation, thoughts, saying be this, don't be that. There is nothing intending sight, sound, sensation, thought, saying I want these to be different later. There is nothing deciding a change in the senses (labelling certain attributes and choosing a more favorable one, ie. I choose water instead of coffee) there is simply a change when it occurs.

Hello Anthony,

So is there anyone/anything that is choosing what is done or what happens in life?
Is there anyone/anything controlling life or what happens in life?
Is there anyone who is deciding anything about life or what to do in life or to do about life?
Is there a doer, thinker, sayer or feeler?

Can you give examples how you see choosing, control, intentions, decisions and free will playing out in your life now.

Kay

No one, nor any object is choosing, controlling, deciding, doing what happens in life. There is no doer of action, thinker of thoughts, speaker of words, feeler of feelings, controller of outcomes, decider of decisions.

When "I" go out for a walk in the woods and decide to smoke a cigarette, there isn't anyone doing either action. Walking is occurring, smoking is occurring, coldness is sensed, sights are seen, bird songs are heard, but not BY or occurring TO someone or something, that is only another thought. All "action" is still there as a way of mentally referencing time-oriented events, but that is only the actual experience of a thought called "smoking" without a separate smoker or one aware of smoking.

A thought called " mind" doesn't choose to smoke, a sight labelled "body" cant choose, neither can a sensation. A smoker is not sensed, let alone one who chooses or rejects to smoke. Although there are processes, like actions, which are labelled choosing, deciding, intending through time, in actuality there isn't any choice but to sense what is present. And sensing what is present in actual experience doesn't have a "experiencer" OF an object, there is just what is presently, which is constantly changing without any duration.

Hi Anthony,

Thank you for your responses. What I am going to do now is get a couple of guides to look at your thread to make sure I have covered everything and that everything is clear. They may or may not have further questions for you. If not, then you will receive a private message from the forum inviting you to join the LU aftercare facebook groups. Either which way, you will hear from me letting you know in a day or two.

Kay

Thank you very much Kay, I couldnt have realized this without your help. I am very grateful for you kindness and consistent pointing and patience. :)

Hey Anthony,

There is a couple of questions to your initial response to question 5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?

What makes things happen? How does it work? Give an example from your own recent experiences to how things happens and how things work.

You wrote:-

What makes actual experience happen? There is contact of an eye with an object of sight, same with ear and sound, tongue and taste, "mind" and thought. This contact plus awareness is called seeing, hearing, sensing, thinking.

"How do you experience eye contacting with an object?
Can that be directly seen, without any assumption or imagination?"

"Is seeing anything other that just seeing?"

Kay

How do you experience eye contacting with an object?

It its not experienced, it is a thought and speculation.

Can that be directly seen, without any assumption or imagination?

No, you cannot see an eye contacting an object, there is only sight.

Is seeing anything other that just seeing?

Seeing is only seeing without an eye seeing, or a body seeing, or a self seeing.

Hello Anthony,

Congratulations, and welcome through the Gateless Gate! There are no further questions for you. It has been a pleasure to explore the concept of the separate self, and point the way with you. Thank you for being so open and willing to LOOK!

In the next day or so, keep an eye out for an email notification from the forum about a PM (private message) inviting you to join our Aftercare groups on Facebook. If you don't receive an email notification, you can access your PM's from the forum once you have logged in.The PM also details other resources available to you. Your name will change from green to blue on the forum, which indicates that you have had the realisation of there being no separate self.

You can contact me at any time if you have any questions etc, via the forums PM system, or via Facebook if you decide to join our groups there.

Love, Kay