Searching for the socks I never owned

[bonniewonder]

Hello,

Does the sensation know anything about the label? Does it become the label?
No it doesnt and it doesnt become the label, only in thought.

Can it be known, by DE (direct experience) that there is a connection between sensation and thought? Is there a mechanism which links them? Can you see, hear, it at work?
There is no direct connection, they are completely seperate.

Check something out: if you focus on thoughts they seem to become more, don’t they? And ‘stronger’. There is no sensation needed for it.
There is no sensation needed for thought but with the stronger thoughts often this can work in reverse and then create the sensation. Anxiety, fear, tension.

Thanks,

Bonnie

[Jadzia]

No it doesnt and it doesnt become the label, only in thought.

Right - it works for everything. A label is just a word/thought, which might have an added meaning by another thought.

There is no direct connection, they are completely seperate.

Well observed.

There is no sensation needed for thought but with the stronger thoughts often this can work in reverse and then create the sensation. Anxiety, fear, tension.

What tells about a thought being stronger or weaker?
Observing thoughts, does one thought really feels different than the other?
Content of thought does imply it, yes, but can thoughts really do something?

Love,
Jadzia

[bonniewonder]

Hello,
Sorry for my late reply, another sickness bug for all of us. I do notice that I need to keep Practising because when i have a few days of non reflection, it slips into the background.

When you thought about the different food, did you choose the qualities that turned up or did they turn up on their own?
They turned up on their own just from past experience, this is healthier, this is sweeter etc.

When you counted the thoughts about the food slipped to the background and the counting was in front - did you choose that or did it just happen?
No it just happened, but it was still in the background, i could identify it was there.

When you picked one of the foods, could you find anyone who decided what to eat?
No, it just seemed to happen, like an impulse i guess.

I know it probably sounds stupid, so i can see that there is no me making the decision but i cant see how it changes things.
Thanks

Bonnie

[Jadzia]

I hope you all are well again!

They turned up on their own just from past experience, this is healthier, this is sweeter etc.

Past experience, aka thoughts, right?

I know it probably sounds stupid, so i can see that there is no me making the decision but i cant see how it changes things.

What we do right now is tackling the beliefs connected to the belief in the separate self. They are the I as doer, chooser, thinker, as body or the decider. It is good to have a look at all of them.

What things would you like or expected to be changed?

Love,
Jadzia

[bonniewonder]

Hello,

Yes I see that I have an expectation here. I can see that there is no self and I'm starting to see there is no one who makes choices, they just happen. I suppose I wonder why with this knowledge I cant intergrate it into my life, I dont feel like my thinking has changed particularly, I mean more the content of my thoughts. Its still a continuous conveyor belt of rubbish analysing, judging and what I notice the most is repetition.

Also with making choices, it was said that my reasons for eating each food was based on past experience which was thought. does that mean regardless of your past experience the decision is still made isolated from that? ANd its only through thought that you are lead to believe that you made the decision?

Thanks,

Bonnie

[Jadzia]

I suppose I wonder why with this knowledge I cant intergrate it into my life, I dont feel like my thinking has changed particularly, I mean more the content of my thoughts. Its still a continuous conveyor belt of rubbish analysing, judging and what I notice the most is repetition.

This is a big expectation, the expectations that thinking and thoughts would change as soon as one realizes the self isn’t exactly what was thought.
They will with the time, but as with all strong habits it might take a while.
The earliest changes are often found in behaviour and how to deal with emotion. What do you find?

does that mean regardless of your past experience the decision is still made isolated from that? ANd its only through thought that you are lead to believe that you made the decision?

What are past experiences? Don’t they only exist in thought as memory? Again, can a thought instigate any action or do something? A thought would say yes to that, right? ;-)

This exercise might help you to become clearer about this.
The following link is a 7 minute clip of a soccer game. If you prefer another sport…please feel free to find one to do this exercise with.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yy5pL-myDzw

1. Watch one minute with the sound turned OFF, watching ‘people’ messing about with a round thing on a field, up and down, up and down. Let it sink in, the whole experience.

2. Once the first minute is completed, now watch another whole minute with the commentary turned ON.

Notice the differences. Notice how the commentator (thought) offers lots of know-how, even advice. It seems to feel as though they can influence, somehow, what is going on, as though one outcome is much preferred to the opposite outcome. The commentary may seem to heighten any supporter feelings which are there, and call for an identification with one team or other, and with the importance of the game itself.

3. Now turn the volume OFF AGAIN and just watch the action with NO audible commentary, the shapes moving around on the screen etc. Again notice all the differences in what is appearing as experience.

4. Now turn the volume ON again and ignore what you think you know thought is talking about, and just notice it as sound.

What did you find when doing this exercise?
Is the commentary on the soccer game a necessity for the play to happen?
And in the same way, is the inner narration of thought a necessity for the play of life to happen?


Love,
Jadzia

[bonniewonder]

Hello,

I notice with regards to behaviour and emotions that I do not get as upset or annoyed by things asI recognise that there is no I to take offence or to be upset by things. I think the problem I have is that sometimes it feels like I am just letting things go all the time, which is good in one sense but maybe not in another. For example if a colleague says something with the intention of causing upset do I let it go as there is no I to have taken offence....... I choose this option but it doesnt negate the fact that someone said something for the intention of causing upset. I understand I cannot control people and maybe it is all just life living?

I watched the football game, the first minute with no sound, I watched the players, who they passed the ball to etc. the play without sound was completely random; there was no predicting where the ball would go and who would score. Also the repetition, showing the goal from a variety of different angles. I thought thats exactly like our thoughts!
With the commentary on it was different, it offered background information and facts and statistics that really had no relevance to the play at the time. There was also a feeling of control that we could somehow predict the outcome.
With the sound off again I tried to just see with actual experience, I think I noticed more detail, the shade on the pitch, faces, the space.
With the sound on again, it seemed loud, it seemed unecessary and I found it very distracting. It was a great exercise to demonstrate how the mind is. I guess the key now is to learn to live with the noise, as exactly that, just noise.

The commentary is not necessary at all, it creates suspence and drama.
No the inner naration doesn't change life happening.

I know we have spoke about choice when choosing the food and I could see that the choice happened but what about for more important choices? When I think of the past there are many situations where I have thought and thought to the point of exhaustion and maybe I can see that without it all the outcomes would still be the same, so life just lives? but this still sounds like a path is chosen, predetermined somehow?

Thanks,

Bonnie

[Jadzia]

I notice with regards to behaviour and emotions that I do not get as upset or annoyed by things asI recognise that there is no I to take offence or to be upset by things. I think the problem I have is that sometimes it feels like I am just letting things go all the time, which is good in one sense but maybe not in another.

Where is the one choosing not to react?
Look again and again when the thought comes “I decide this and that…..” before, during or after an action happens?

I choose this option but it doesnt negate the fact that someone said something for the intention of causing upset.
Look carefully here: What is giving the information that someone wants to cause upset?
There is simply action happening which is labeled in a way, isn’t it?

The commentary is not necessary at all, it creates suspence and drama.
No the inner naration doesn't change life happening.

Whatever thoughts appear about reaction or not reaction, being offended or not or t the colleague is trouble or not or, or….

I know we have spoke about choice when choosing the food and I could see that the choice happened but what about for more important choices?

What adds important, more important, not important?

but this still sounds like a path is chosen, predetermined somehow?

You can observe that choice happens, what about a chooser or someone or somewhat predetermining life?

Bonnie, it might make it easier for you if you try writing more often. That helps building up a momentum and not falling for thoughts.

Love,
Jadzia


Love,
jadzia

[bonniewonder]

Hello,

Yes I think I need to write everyday, it has just been a little difficult after returnung to work. When you reply to me I can see of course I have been listening to thought.

There is no one choosing to react but thoughts suggest that I am making that choice. Its like thought battling with thought. So using a work colleague as an example, they say something, immediate thought, why did they say that, what did they mean etc etc. Then the other thought comes in just leave it, its not possible for you to be offended. Its a bit like good cop, bad cop but also the fact there is no self in this scenario is just another thought. I can say there is no self, there is no chooser but isnt that still just a thought too?
I think the 'bond' that is being broken is extremely strong its like telling someone who is very religious that god doesn't exist. There is no evidence that he/she exists but people have spent a lifetime believing it. I feel this is the same principle with the 'I' At the moment I can think it, I can see the logic but I cant feel it.
I can see that there is no bond as there is no I to have a bond with and that is all fabricated though thought and past thought belief.

I see that thought labels words and gives me the information that someone wants to cause upset. But is it really possible to see words as just words, sounds leaving someones mouth, yes in AE but from a child we are programmed to know what is good and bad, what are kind words and which are not. How can that be undone?

Yes, thought makes us think that one thing is more important than another. For example, often death is alot of peoples biggest fear, again generated by thought, the unknown, leaving people behind etc. If a decision has to be made that is life and death is it not more important than choosing whether to take a coffee or tea? I know the answer is no because there is no 'I' making the choice.

Sorry I wasnt sure what you meant by the last question about a pretetermined life?

Thanks,

Bonnie

[Jadzia]

Yes I think I need to write everyday, it has just been a little difficult after returnung to work.

You wrote about it, so if you don’t manage a day it is fine.

There is no one choosing to react but thoughts suggest that I am making that choice. Its like thought battling with thought. So using a work colleague as an example, they say something, immediate thought, why did they say that, what did they mean etc etc. Then the other thought comes in just leave it, its not possible for you to be offended. Its a bit like good cop, bad cop but also the fact there is no self in this scenario is just another thought.

Good description. Lots of voices, high drama, emotions no end – blimey, quiet exhausting isn’t it? Grand Opera! ;-)
It is good to keep in mind that there is nothing wrong with thoughts at all, but there is no need to pay them too much attention. In the beginning the constant reminder of “Hey, no one is thinking this, no one is choosing this …and so on” is needed. With the time the habit of listening and believing them by letter fades.

I can say there is no self, there is no chooser but isnt that still just a thought too?

Yes, but what are epiphanies, realizations? Everything will always be turned into words aka thoughts, that is the way it seems to be.

But is it really possible to see words as just words, sounds leaving someones mouth, yes in AE but from a child we are programmed to know what is good and bad, what are kind words and which are not. How can that be undone?

Same here having a close look helps. An action is just an action, nothing more, everything else, like right/wrong, good/bad ect is added and this is what creates the story.
We are talking here about stuff which one grows out slowly step by step over a longer time.

So for the moment keep it simply and avoid over thinking. Life has this unfolding trick, understanding grows.

Here is a nice exercise for you:
Please find a quiet place and a quiet time.
Sit or lay down and relax. Close your eyes and relax.

Can you attend to sensation exclusively?
Not minding thought babbling about this and that?
Not minding thought labelling sensation for a bit?

Thought may tell: "I am lying/sitting here" or "My body is lying/sitting here" or "A body is lying/sitting here".
But could this be known from pure sensation?

Thought might suggest: "There is a soft pressure against the back".
But could you know about "pressure" or "back" from pure sensation?

Once arrived there, while ONLY attending to sensation, please have a look at the following questions:

Can be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a specific size, shape or weight?
How many toes are there?
Is there an inside or outside of the body?

Love,
Jadzia

[bonniewonder]

Hello,

I tried this exercise last night and I found it extremely difficult to get to a stage where my mind wasnt commentating for me (it really does enjoy talking) ;)
So I will answer the questions the best I can from my fleeting moments, I will also try again this evning to try and explore the sensation more.
Yes I felt like the mind could attend to sensation alone, the only way I could describe it was like being energy and there being only silence. From pure sensation alone it is not possible to identify a body maybe a presence without edges but withtout labelling there is nothing to define.

Can be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a specific size, shape or weight?
How many toes are there?
Is there an inside or outside of the body?

No, it is not possible to know how tall the body is or the size or weight. Its not possible to know how many toes there are with senstion alone you know the bodys sensations end at the toes but it is not possible to say what is there. I think with sensation alone it is difficult to determine an inside and outside of th body as it seems to blur into one.
I hope this is clear and I will continue to explore it further.

I just had one question, this morning I was really rushing because I was late for work, and I said to myself who is rushing? but I didnt know the answer. I could say it wasnt me, but then it couldnt be my body as that has no concept of time and then I thought I could say its part of the bonnie story but that couldnt be the case either as it was happening in AE.
Its things like this that stump me sometimes because the 'rules' of life still apply if you want to function. I think sometimes I find it hard to merge the two concepts.

Thanks,

Bonnie

[Jadzia]

Well done.
With closed eyes, one has to remember via thoughts that there is a body, otherwise one can’t directly experience one.
Is the "energy/presence without form" a sense of aliveness, of being alive?

I think with sensation alone it is difficult to determine an inside and outside of th body as it seems to blur into one.
I hope this is clear and I will continue to explore it further.

It is beautifully clear.

Its things like this that stump me sometimes because the 'rules' of life still apply if you want to function. I think sometimes I find it hard to merge the two concepts.

It is not as if the illusion would disappear, you just know and are able to call it an illusion.
And yes, in the beginning it is a bit weird.

When you are rushing to work – in direct experience, there is colour/form (seeing), hearing and physical sensations, all labeled as I am rushing to work through the streets and so on.
Is an experiencer of the experience needed for it to happen?

What might be helpful is to realize it was never any different, never ever, Bonnie was always only found in a carefully woven story, there was just a belief into this illusion. Now that it wavers and will drop, nothing will change.
Everything goes on as usual. ;-)

Love,
Jadzia

[bonniewonder]

Hello,

Yes I felt like the energy was an aliveness but not an intense feeling or anything like that more like the humming of a heater, not obvious but if you listen you can hear it.

What you said is very helpful as I see I have expectations again, that it would be possible for the illusion to stop or that life would somehow be different so it is good to know it is just my awareness of the illusion that changes not the illusion its self. I think it is probably important not to see the illusion as a negative thing either like you said before because it is necessary to have it to function, the key is not to buy into it.

No there does not need to be an expriencer for the experience to happen, but given the situation rushing to work, my thoughts go back to choice. I could have set the alarm clock earlier, could that choice have happened without an I? Is it possible to have the thought and then make the choice or the choice just happens. I can have the thought my hand is going to pick up this apple. there is no doubt the thought came first as I hadnt even considered it before the thought entered my head.

Thanks,

Bonnie

[Jadzia]

I think it is probably important not to see the illusion as a negative thing either like you said before because it is necessary to have it to function, the key is not to buy into it.

Yes. Not buying into it is really the key.

Choice is a very belief and it is helpful to look again and again when does the thought ‘claiming’ the action come before, during or after the action?

Watch out in the morning for the first thought “Time to get up.” Is it followed? There might come more thoughts with similar content – watch carefully is the thought prompting the action or does the getting up simply happen at some point?

Do you choose the point when you fall asleep at night? Can you pinpoint a choice?

Go on observing.

Love,
Jadzia

[bonniewonder]

Hello,

I had a look at this a little and I think what I noticed is I get alot of thoughts, you have to do this or do that and this is what makes me believe that I am controlling the action when its actually happening, but in fact I have the thoughts before but they are seperate to the action. So if I'm sitting on the sofa and my thoughts are 'come on get up, you need to make dinner' When I actually do get up it just happens automatically.

No you cannot make the choice when to fall asleep, you can think 'I must sleep, I have a busy day tomorrow' but this has no bearing on when the body falls asleep.

I will continue to investigate over the weekend, especially in the morning.

Thanks,

Bonnie