Newbie

[Anastacia42]

Thank you for keeping in touch I was wondering. Just let me know when you do have time.

See if you can apply some of what you were learning to whatever is going on that is keeping you busy. What part of it is actual experience? And what part is made up story?

Warmly,

[Allybally]

Hi Stacey, i am still here i am trying this tonight.

Hope you are well.
Alan

[Anastacia42]

Thank you for letting me know.Yes, all basically well here.

You may want to review the last three or four posts to see what we're doing right now.

Much love,

[Allybally]

Hi Stacey,

So I have tried again a few times to do the process of describing whats happening with and without using 'I'. I don't notice anything dramatic about the body but what I do notice is that when I use 'I' to describe what is happening things seem more distant and it seems focussed in my head. When I don't use the 'I' things seem closer to the body and feel more like they are directly associated with the body.

I don't really know where I am with this process but I have been looking at no self for a while and I think this is just a gradual process for me so I don't know when I can see there is no self. Maybe if I describe some things you might be better able to see where I am at.

Over the past couple of weeks I have been doing a lot of driving and noticed that my hands move and I can drive for a long time without thinking of driving. So that tells me that I do not need to think thoughts or make decisions to turn the wheel for it to happen. Therefore I observed that the self was not there to be involved.

This led me onto something else, I tried thinking a thought to see if that meant my body would do it. So while I was driving I said to myself touch the window, I did it a number of times and my hand didn't touch the window (at this point I panicked a bit as I was worried I wouldn't be able to do anything again!! : ) So that showed me the thought 'touch the window' did not result in me touching the window, so again my self-made thoughts weren't controlling things.

This morning I woke up and was running through a song in my head, just the tune without any thought, a few seconds later the thought came in 'I am going through that song by that band'. So again I could see that something had arose in my consciousness that my mind then came in to describe/makes sense of/annotate.

I have been listening to some of LU podcast and am getting a lot out of those and filling in the gaps I wasn't quite getting. I can see there is only our senses and then our mind/thoughts come in to label/make sense of etc. That we don't decide things but that things just happen and then our mind comes in to again make sense.

My main issue at the minute is that I get lost in the story and identify with the thoughts again after some time, which is not a good experience I can then delve back into the thoughts that are not based on reality.

Sorry I have been quiet but I have been thinking and doing exercises and looking for myself. Sometimes I find the exercises difficult as it seems I need to think through things myself.

Thanks,
Alan

[Anastacia42]

Hi Alan,

All that sounds great. Your process is fine. Take your time. Glad the podcasts are helping, too. Any LU material can be good support to help you.

It does help to keep in touch daily or every other day - that way you don't stay confused too long. I can help. But it is up to you.

with and without using 'I'. I don't notice anything dramatic about the body but what I do notice is that when I use 'I' to describe what is happening things seem more distant and it seems focused in my head. When I don't use the 'I' things seem closer to the body and feel more like they are directly associated with the body.

Yes and no.

We will explore body later, probably, but the sensation of farther & closer is one verbal approximation we can find. I tend to say "truer" about the statements without "I." Something more "real" without "I." It isn't exactly about closer to "the body." "Body" is just like "cup" and "apple" and all the other labels.

My main issue at the minute is that I get lost in the story and identify with the thoughts again after some time, which is not a good experience I can then delve back into the thoughts that are not based on reality.

That is perfectly alright. That will continue to happen - maybe for a long time, maybe forever. However, it is still known that these are stories and not real. That is the main thing.

What is meant by

not a good experience?

Is "not good" something you can see? Hear? Taste? Touch? Smell? Or is it only the content of a thought? The thought of "not good" arose, yes. But point to this thing called "not good." Can you?

Are you SEEING the difference between the Direct Experience (DE) FACT of thought arising versus the story or content of thought?

Cup Exercise

Here is an exercise which points out the difference between Direct Experience (DE) and content
of thought.

There are two types of thoughts:

(1) Thoughts with words “Here is cup”

(2) Visual mental images of a ‘cup’

So I invite you to do this exercise:

Think of a cup. Get a very clear picture in your mind. See clearly the size, shape, colour and volume of the cup. Notice whether it is decorated or plain. Notice whether it has a handle. Notice whether it is heavy or fragile. Do you have a clear picture in mind?

Now, can you physically grasp that image of a cup?
Can you pour tea into it?
Can you drink from it?

Is there a ‘real’ cup or just an image of a cup?
Is there an appearing mental image?
Is the content of the mental image (the cup) ‘real’?

The thoughts and mental images are real only as arising thoughts and mental images, their ‘presence’ cannot be denied. However their contents, what are they about are not ‘real’, they are just fantasies. Can you see this?

Over the course of the next day or so, I'd like you to notice the content of thoughts.

Whenever there is an arising thought or mental image, check whether its content (what it’s about) is really happening, or the content is just pure imagination.

This will also give you something to focus on when you "get lost in thought," so to speak.

Much love,

[Allybally]

Hi Stacey,

Is "not good" something you can see? Hear? Taste? Touch? Smell? Or is it only the content of a thought? The thought of "not good" arose, yes. But point to this thing called "not good." Can you?

No it is only a label that I put on the experience, the experience itself just happened but my mind but the label of not good, not nice, uncomfortable etc.

Are you SEEING the difference between the Direct Experience (DE) FACT of thought arising versus the story or content of thought?

Yes I can see this, the content of thoughts is not real. The exercise with the cup really made that clear, you can visualise or think about an object and that is not real, or you can look,feel etc and directly experience it in reality.

Thanks,
Alan

[Anastacia42]

Good morning,

Keeping in mind the difference between thought arising and the content of thought the way you did in your last post, look for "I." Can you find it?

One way to do this is to try to find the place where your butt ends and the chair begins. LOOK

What is found?

Much love,

[Allybally]

Hi Stacy,

Could you maybe give some more details or another exercise? Im not so sure about the chair/butt thing! But i can see that I is just another thought like every other thought.

Thanks,
Alan

[Anastacia42]

Sure, mentally LOOK just like you're doing with everything else and tell me can you find a place where your butt ends and the chair begins.

Just that. Very simple. Mentally look.

Got it?

[Allybally]

Hi,

There isnt anything there, it doesn't feel like there is anything in between. I can feel the feeling of pressure but i cant say theres anything in between.

Alan

[Anastacia42]

Hi Alan,

Right! Nothing there! So where is this "self" we all talk about? Can you find it?

Alright, try this:

Introductory Body Exercise

Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes.

Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images:

Can it be known how tall the body is?

Does the body have a weight or volume?

In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?

Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

Is there an inside or an outside?

If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly?

If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?

What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

Look very carefully, especially with the last question. Take your time, don’t rush. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, having a short break from work, walking, etc) before replying.

It's fine to take your time with it.

Much love,

[Allybally]

Hi Stacy,

I observed this a few times throughout the 2 days and then last night I sat down and closed my eyes to do the exercise.

I was sitting in my living room on the sofa, there was nothing else going on in the house no tvs or radios but a fish tank bubbling in the corner.

I won't reply to every thing you mentioned in the last post unless you specifically want me to but this is what I found.

I could feel "pressure" which I guess corresponded to where my body touched the sofa and I could hear the fish tank bubbling. That is really all I could feel, there was no feeling of where different parts of my body where, the inside or the outside, where my body began and the seat started. There was only a feeling which I would label as pressure and the sound of the fish tank. That's all nothing else just the experience of those 2 things.

Thanks,
Alan

[Anastacia42]

Hi Alan,

Yes, please answer every question. There are no shortcuts.

This is for you.

Thank you,

[Allybally]

Hi Stacy,

ok, no probs, was trying to be practical but I'm realising this is all part of the journey and the experience of understanding things. Will answer fully.

Can it be known how tall the body is?

No I couldn't tell the dimensions of the body, there was nothing in my experience that would tell me that

Does the body have a weight or volume?

Not that I could experience, I could experience pressure that I could label as caused by weight but nothing I can experience as a bodies weight, similar to height, I could not experience the bodies volume

In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

No I can't tell the bodies shape. But it feels like pressure can be felt in different locations around the body and that those locations are different and they seem to have a directionality. So if I touch my right leg it feels different to when I touch my left leg and they seem to be in actual locations.

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?

No I can't feel a boundary there just a touch/pressure sendsation

Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

As above no there is no boundary there just the pressure sensation

Is there an inside or an outside?

No I don't think I can feel a difference between inside and outside, though this is hard to be certain of as its so ingrained visually that there is a difference between the body and other objects

If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly?

If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?

With my eyes closed I don't really feel there is an iside or an outside but my eyes open tell me there is.

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?

With my eyes closed the label of body doesn't refer to anything

What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

Its just the awareness of pressure and sounds, and it feels like some direction of pressure so it feels like the right is different from the left for example

Thanks,
Alan

[Anastacia42]

Good morning!

This will help you MUCH more. You will get much more guidance from me if I have more details from you. This is great!

No I can't tell the bodies shape. But it feels like pressure can be felt in different locations around the body and that those locations are different and they seem to have a directionality. So if I touch my right leg it feels different to when I touch my left leg and they seem to be in actual locations.

it feels like some direction of pressure so it feels like the right is different from the left for example

Okay. Sensations can seem to have a quality of location.

Check.

Touch each leg, alternating. Touch both legs.

See if you can see past this interpretation of spatial relationships in sensing.

Is there "location?"

Is there thought saying there is "location?"

Is there only sensing happening?

What is found?

No I don't think I can feel a difference between inside and outside, though this is hard to be certain of as its so ingrained visually that there is a difference between the body and other objects

If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly?

If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?
With my eyes closed I don't really feel there is an iside or an outside but my eyes open tell me there is.

Think about how a painter must see in order to paint on a flat canvas. LOOK.

With eyes open, can you see dimensionality in Actual/Direct Experience? Or is it thought saying there is?

Further, is there a "me" separate that is seeing something outside itself? Or could there be there just Seeing happening?


https://www.pinterest.com/pin/518618331 ... 1/?lp=true

Yes, it's tricky. Much like those drawings of old woman/young woman or candlesticks/faces or those recent pictures with colored dots that you look at a certain way and see images? We have to stop believing the contents of our thoughts and just SEE what is there in Actual Experience.

Can you see how much more helpful it is to give these details for me to address? You are doing great! You are clearly spending time LOOKING.

Much love,