Maitrinaga

[forgetmenot]

Hello MN,

Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

Yes the one without the “I” added is truer. The thinking about “I” then the consequent thinking about that thought – moves away from AE of the first

Did you find an “I” with whatever you were doing? Let’s say typing was happening, did you find an “I” that was typing?

Seeing ‘hand’ on a ‘keyboard’ which thought says is typing – is this actual evidence that there is an “I” typing? What is the AE?

What is here without labels?

Experience of sound, colour, sensation, smell or thought.
The labels get treated as objects in and of themselves

Yes, there is simply experience itself which thought labels as sound, colour, sensation, taste, smell and thought.

Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

Labels do affect experience - only thoughts about experience are known when “I” is used. However, to a certain extent writing itself without using the pronoun also affects experience? The writing and thinking about experience is a different experience

How do thoughts affect the experience? Does paper get affected by what is written on it? If you were to have absolutely no thoughts when typing, all there would be is AE of sensation, sound and colour. So does thought actually affect sensation, sound and colour, or do thoughts simply overlay the sensation with a story?


There is a belief that labels have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’. But there isn’t. It is a generally accepted belief that labels like ‘good’ and ‘bad’ are inherent characteristics of ‘things’. But actually, they are not.

When you look at the word label ‘GREEN’, what is the actual experience?
Is the colour red experienced, or is the colour green experienced as the label suggests?
Do the labels have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’?
Or do the labels suggest something else other than what is here and now (red colour)?
Is green-ness inherent attributes of the experience of the colour red, or is green just a word label on the experience of the colour red?

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’, is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?
Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’, or do the labels have no effect whatsoever on ‘reality’?

Did you notice any differences in the body?

The body is more open and relaxed when noting without “I”

Lovely observation.

Love, Kay

[Maitrinaga]

Did you find an “I” with whatever you were doing? Let’s say typing was happening, did you find an “I” that was typing?

No I was found, No I was typing

Seeing ‘hand’ on a ‘keyboard’ which thought says is typing – is this actual evidence that there is an “I” typing? What is the AE?

NO this is not actual evidence that there is an “I” typing?
The AE is of touch, sight, sound, thought

How do thoughts affect the experience?

Thoughts do not affect the basic experience but they themselves become objects of other experience

Does paper get affected by what is written on it?

Yes it is physically changed by pressure and the laying on of ink.

If you were to have absolutely no thoughts when typing, all there would be is AE of sensation, sound and colour. So does thought actually affect sensation, sound and colour, or do thoughts simply overlay the sensation with a story?

Yes thought are secondary and overlay the sensation, sound and colour with a story which is subsequently thought about as if it were primary.

When you look at the word label ‘GREEN’, what is the actual experience?

AE of red, AE of the shapes labelled as the word GREEN

Is the colour red experienced, or is the colour green experienced as the label suggests?

The colour red experienced

Do the labels have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’?

No

Or do the labels suggest something else other than what is here and now (red colour)?

Yes labels are inaccurate

Is green-ness inherent attributes of the experience of the colour red, or is green just a word label on the experience of the colour red?

Yes, green just a word label on the experience of the colour red?

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’, is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?

No

Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’, or do the labels have no effect whatsoever on ‘reality’?

In this example the labels have no effect whatsoever on ‘reality’ the typeface is still red?

[forgetmenot]

Hello MN,

How do thoughts affect the experience?

Thoughts do not affect the basic experience but they themselves become objects of other experience

I have no idea what you are saying here. To what do thought become objects of other experience?

Does colour know thought? Does sound, taste, sensation or smell know thought? Does thought know thought?

Does paper get affected by what is written on it?

Yes it is physically changed by pressure and the laying on of ink.

That is story, MN and has nothing to do with AE. It is a metaphor. It doesn’t matter what is written on it, the paper still remains paper. Just like a TV screen isn’t affected by what picture appears on it. AE is not affected by labels, AE remains as AE, no matter how thought labels it or tells stories about it.

If you were to have absolutely no thoughts when typing, all there would be is AE of sensation, sound and colour. So does thought actually affect sensation, sound and colour, or do thoughts simply overlay the sensation with a story?

Yes thought are secondary and overlay the sensation, sound and colour with a story which is subsequently thought about as if it were primary.

I want you to look at this carefully. Does thought actually change actual experience? Just because thought labels sound ‘beep beep’ as ‘car horn’, does that affect or change the sound in any way? That was the purpose of the green label exercise below, for you to see that labels don’t have a correlation with AE.

When you look at the word label ‘GREEN’, what is the actual experience?

AE of red, AE of the shapes labelled as the word GREEN

There are no shapes. Shapes are just different shades of colour. When you look at the label ‘GREEN’ what is the AE? Is experience that of ‘red’ or that of ‘green’? Does the label correspond with what is being experienced?

Is the colour red experienced, or is the colour green experienced as the label suggests?

The colour red experienced

Yes, exactly. Just because it is labelled as ‘green’, does that change the experience of ‘red’ in any way? Does the ‘red’ itself suggest in any way that it is green? Does the label ‘green’ know anything about green or red?

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’, is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?

No

Exactly. So if sensation is labelled as ‘fear’, does it change the sensation? Is the sensation actually ‘fear’ or is it simply a sensation?

Does the sensation itself suggest in any way that it is ‘fear’?

Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’, or do the labels have no effect whatsoever on ‘reality’?

In this example the labels have no effect whatsoever on ‘reality’ the typeface is still red?

And in what example does label actually affect ‘reality’ (reality being AE)?

Love, Kay

[Maitrinaga]

Hi Kay

I want you to look at this carefully. Does thought actually change actual experience? Just because thought labels sound ‘beep beep’ as ‘car horn’, does that affect or change the sound in any way? That was the purpose of the green label exercise below, for you to see that labels don’t have a correlation with AE.

I get that labels don/t have a direct one to one with AE - so what!

There are no shapes. Shapes are just different shades of colour. When you look at the label ‘GREEN’ what is the AE? Is experience that of ‘red’ or that of ‘green’? Does the label correspond with what is being experienced?

ok about shape and colour
No the label does not correspond with what is being experienced it is just a story

Yes, exactly. Just because it is labelled as ‘green’, does that change the experience of ‘red’ in any way?

No

Does the ‘red’ itself suggest in any way that it is green?

No

Does the label ‘green’ know anything about green or red?

NO
How can a label know?

Exactly. So if sensation is labelled as ‘fear’, does it change the sensation?

No

Is the sensation actually ‘fear’ or is it simply a sensation?

It is simply a sensation

Does the sensation itself suggest in any way that it is ‘fear’?

No

And in what example does label actually affect ‘reality’ (reality being AE)?

Not sure I understand the question – “And in what example does,,”
Label does not affect AE

Be well
MN

[forgetmenot]

Hello MN,

I want you to look at this carefully. Does thought actually change actual experience? Just because thought labels sound ‘beep beep’ as ‘car horn’, does that affect or change the sound in any way? That was the purpose of the green label exercise below, for you to see that labels don’t have a correlation with AE.

I get that labels don/t have a direct one to one with AE - so what!

The SO WHAT is about me making sure you are clear. If you aren’t clear about what is being pointed to, then we will go round in circles. "So what" is also about looking a little deeper at what is being pointed at.

The colour ‘red’ is simply AE of colour. Drop the label ‘red’ and what is left is ‘colour’, drop the label ‘colour’ and what do you find?

Does the label ‘green’ know anything about green or red?

NO
How can a label know?

That is exactly the point. So instead of just going with a label/thought, you always check it with AE to see what actually IS!

Is the sensation actually ‘fear’ or is it simply a sensation?

It is simply a sensation

Yes, is it simply a sensation and has no inherent qualities that thought suggests it has.

And in what example does label actually affect ‘reality’ (reality being AE)?

Not sure I understand the question – “And in what example does,,”
Label does not affect AE

It was a question to your response to the following question, as I wanted you to give me an example of when labels have an effect on reality.

Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’, or do the labels have no effect whatsoever on ‘reality’?

In this example the labels have no effect whatsoever on ‘reality’ the typeface is still red?

And in what example does label actually affect ‘reality’ (reality being AE)?

Okay, so you should be aware of the nature of thought. So let’s move on to the idea of control/decisions/choice.

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.
2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.

Watch like a hawk.

Don't go to thoughts, examine the actual experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire…

How is the movement controlled?
Does a thought control it?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

Love, Kay

[Maitrinaga]

I will explore the control exercise now

How is the movement controlled?

A biomechanical analysis in inappropriate here.
Sensation labelled “movement” is known
Colour/image labelled “moving hand” is known
I am bemused by this question, the decision/volition to move the hand in a certain way can not be seen when looked at.
When I sit and do the exercise, looking then trying to formulate responses to your questions, it is frustrating – the movement is controlled, it happens. The AE of “how” bewilders me.
There is sensation in the chest and a tightening of the body just before movement occurs.

Does a thought control it?

No

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

No, how could there be?

How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

I can’t track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.
Do thoughts make decisions?
There is no immediate movement as a result of thought.
Thought does not control the movement.

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

No
Not unless the though occurs, even then it disappears.
That sense of embodiment is not it. When looked sensation labelled “me” is known. However the me is not known.

[forgetmenot]

Hello MN,

How is the movement controlled?

A biomechanical analysis in inappropriate here.
Sensation labelled “movement” is known
Colour/image labelled “moving hand” is known
I am bemused by this question, the decision/volition to move the hand in a certain way can not be seen when looked at.

Nice observation.

When I sit and do the exercise, looking then trying to formulate responses to your questions, it is frustrating – the movement is controlled, it happens. The AE of “how” bewilders me.
There is sensation in the chest and a tightening of the body just before movement occurs.

So could it just possibly be that the movement just happens and there is no controller of the ‘movement’? And is movement actually movement, or is it simply AE of sensation which thought labels as movement?

Normally we believe that sensation is coming from sight - the object seen. In this example, the object being the ‘hand’.

1. Close the eyes and hold up one hand. Pay attention only to the felt sensation ‘of the hand’.
2. Open the eyes, and now observe the hand by looking only.
3. While looking at the hand, pay attention to the felt sensations.

Repeat 1 to 3 as many times as needed and investigate…

Can you see that both the ‘visual sight’ and the sensation appear simultaneously but ‘separately’, meaning that none of them is coming from the other or contained by the other?

Do they just appear equally, ‘beside’ each other without any hierarchy or link between them?

Is there any link between the sensation and the sight, meaning that the sensation is ‘coming from’ the sight (labelled as ‘hand’) or only thought and mental constructs link them?

How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

I can’t track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

Precisely :) When you find yourself 'absent-mindedly' scratching an itch, was there is decision point to do that?

Love, Kay

[Maitrinaga]

Hi Kay
I posted this earlier in the day. It appears to have dissapeared!

Here it is again

So could it just possibly be that the movement just happens and there is no controller of the ‘movement’? And is movement actually movement, or is it simply AE of sensation which thought labels as movement?

Yes it is a possibility that the movement just happens and there is no controller of the ‘movement’?
All that can be known is AE of sensation which thought labels as movement? Simply AE of sensation

Normally we believe that sensation is coming from sight - the object seen. In this example, the object being the ‘hand’.

1. Close the eyes and hold up one hand. Pay attention only to the felt sensation ‘of the hand’.
2. Open the eyes, and now observe the hand by looking only.
3. While looking at the hand, pay attention to the felt sensations.

Repeat 1 to 3 as many times as needed and investigate…

Can you see that both the ‘visual sight’ and the sensation appear simultaneously but ‘separately’, meaning that none of them is coming from the other or contained by the other?

Yes, more separately than simultaneously though.
What I know for sure is that there’s sensation labelled “hand” and in parallel Colour/sight labelled “hand”

Do they just appear equally, ‘beside’ each other without any hierarchy or link between them?

Yes, they appear equally and independently of each other.

Is there any link between the sensation and the sight, meaning that the sensation is ‘coming from’ the sight (labelled as ‘hand’) or only thought and mental constructs link them?

As I practiced this looking at the hand while paying attention to the felt sensations. It became clearer no link could be found other than stories and thoughts
After some time - when I have my eyes closed I see a visual mental image of hand.
So actual experience was sensation and noticing thought/image labelled “hand”

[forgetmenot]

Hey MN,

Nice looking :)

Is there any link between the sensation and the sight, meaning that the sensation is ‘coming from’ the sight (labelled as ‘hand’) or only thought and mental constructs link them?

As I practiced this looking at the hand while paying attention to the felt sensations. It became clearer no link could be found other than stories and thoughts
After some time - when I have my eyes closed I see a visual mental image of hand.
So actual experience was sensation and noticing thought/image labelled “hand”

Lovely, yes! So when eyes are closed there is only sensation with a ‘mental’ image of a hand appearing. With eyes open there is colour which thought labels as ‘hand’ and thought says that the sensation is coming from the sight of the hand. If this were really the case, there would be no sensation felt when the eyes were closed…right?

Here is an interesting video about this as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dphlhmt ... e=youtu.be

The aim of the following exercise is to discover whether the function of choice can really be found or confirmed in actual experience. The idea of making ‘choices‘ is a very clear example of a function that we wrongly identify as the basis of our identity.

Preparation - Place two different drinks side by side on a table in front of you, sit comfortably on the chair and mentally label them as drink A and drink B.

Sit for a few moments, take a few relaxed breaths and let the dust settle. When you feel ready:

1. Look at drink A and at drink B. Think about their respective qualities, the things you like about them, compare and weigh the pros and cons of each. See if a preference is manifesting for one or the other.
2. Count to 5.
3. Choose one of the drinks. Pick it up and take a sip.

Questions:
Remember that we’re looking for some kind of function, a something, an ‘I’ which is doing the ‘choosing’.

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting? Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?

In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?

Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the ‘choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to ‘choose’?

Love, Kay

[forgetmenot]

Oh and I noticed that you never answered this question from my previous post. Could you answer it please.

The colour ‘red’ is simply AE of colour. Drop the label ‘red’ and what is left is ‘colour’, drop the label ‘colour’ and what do you find?

Kay

[Maitrinaga]

Sorry Kay
This is what I wrote

The colour ‘red’ is simply AE of colour. Drop the label ‘red’ and what is left is ‘colour’, drop the label ‘colour’ and what do you find?

Raw experience. Drop the label “Raw experience” What do I find and so on.....
"looking".....and so on

[Maitrinaga]

Hi Kay

step 1
when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities?

no

Or did they kind of appear by themselves?

yes

If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

They pop up by themselves after some time.

In step 2
when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event?

No I did not choose to bring counting to foreground

Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting?

No a thought arose to switch to step 2
Not sure this is exacly it more like the chooice just happend like thoughts pop in

Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’?

No the switch was made, I did not experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? How could I experience an I?

Have you seen this function in action?

No the results have appeared

In step 3
where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’?

No

Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?

No.
The preference was acted upon

Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the ‘choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’?

Feeling cannot choose

Is it in the nature of a feeling to ‘choose’

No
What is feeling anyway?
I think I will try this on again in the morning. A little dull this eve
Best
MN

[forgetmenot]

Hey MN,

The colour ‘red’ is simply AE of colour. Drop the label ‘red’ and what is left is ‘colour’, drop the label ‘colour’ and what do you find?

Raw experience. Drop the label “Raw experience” What do I find and so on.....
"looking".....and so on

Yes, all there is, is THIS/experience exactly as it is.

I will wait until you have done the drink exercise again, before responding to those, in case you wanted to add something.

Kay

[Maitrinaga]

Step 1
When thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities?

No

Or did they kind of appear by themselves?

yes

If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

The preference emerged there was no need to choose
It was then expressed as thought “I prefer the coke”

Step 2
When you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of events?

No – I did not choose to move preferences to the rear after remembering the instructions for step 2.
The remembering itself just popped up

Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting?

No

Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’?

No

Have you seen this function in action?

NO
No I have seen the results

Step 3
Where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’?

No

Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?

No the choice was made without a chooser.
It was the content of a thought thereafter “I have chosen coke”

Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the ‘choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’?

No a feeling can’t choose like a thought can’t choose
Still usure what a feeling is in terms of AE?
Best
MN

[forgetmenot]

Hey MN,

Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the ‘choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’?

No a feeling can’t choose like a thought can’t choose
Still usure what a feeling is in terms of AE?

A sensation is what is felt by the ‘body’ ie touch and sensations labelled as ‘fear’, ‘cold’ etc. A feeling on the other hand is just a thought. “It feels like I chose a banana over an apple” is simply a thought, an idea as is “it feels like I am a person”.

So this is a good time to look at the idea of the body.

Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes.
Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images:

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

Is there an inside or an outside? If there is an inside - inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside, the outside of what exactly?

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

Look very carefully, especially with the last question. Take your time, don’t rush. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, having a short break from work, walking, etc.) before replying.

Love, Kay