Hi Matthew, 'I'm back', a fresh, anew!
- Can witnessing happen without a witness?
The 'Silent witness' is probably a term i have picked up somewhere. in experience this feels more like the container / space / open awareness of being.
- Is there a distinction between being and seeing?
There seems to be a very subtle difference - seeing being more active, being more natural. When there is being there is nothing else registering. Seeing feels like there is some motion, like aprocess.
- Is there a be-er?
No, there is only being.
In direct experience what i am labelling the silent witness is like the container, a more spacious awareness, like the sky.
being feels more alive and local (but with no edge or boundary)
"The" seeing implies seeing is some kind of object or entity.
Is that how you see seeing?
When i mention pure seeing, listening, it is the process. Like pure being, pure seeing, pure listening. There is no space / separation of subject and object.
- And how can it do the witnessing, do the knowing, do the writing, do the seeing of the illusion of separation etc?
It doesn't do them - it is the witnessing, seeing, writing.
"It: pronoun
1. used to refer to a thing previously mentioned or easily identified. "a room with two beds in it"
2. used to identify a person. "it's me""
Not sure i understand / follow / agree - there was the question "how can it do the witnessing" i replied 'it doesn't' do them' - it IS the witnessing - as in there is no 'It' [as a pronoun]. Perhaps i could have replied to your original question that there is no 'it' - just the process of witnessing or in other words subject, object, witnessing are not distinctly separate. There is nobody there to say 'i am witnessing'.
In direct experience either the words / labels 'i am witnessing' obscure the witness when they come up, or they arise within the witness / spaciousness. The words / labels 'it is' something, label / etc are one step away from the actual witness / awareness / spaciousness.
- Does witnessing need a secondary label, "the witness"?
No but this is a conventional term to convey a message - pointing to deeper meaning / experience / being beyond the words. Perhaps the meaning of it was not conveyed clearly enough in 'my' words :)
- If I told you Santa is the witnessing of children being good and bad, the seeing of who is naughty or nice, and is the writing of children's letters, does that make Santa real?
No. But just to clarify - when i use the word 'witness'-ing i am talking about a skylike space, without judging, labeling, saying someone is naughty or nice / good / bad etc. Everything is contained within witnessing, there is nothing outside of it. There is no judgement coming from the witness (although it could arise within the space of witnessing but then most likely wouldn't be the pure witness / witnessing i am referring to).
Go into nature and observe the forms moving.
- Is there separation between the forms?
It is one flow of life.
- Or is there one motion of life?
One motion of life.
- Where is the witnessing / witnesser in relation to what's seen?
The Silent witness / Awareness / Spaciousness is One with everything seen - it is the container of it, the spaciousness.
In a way i perhaps see what you are pointing at.
The Silent witness is a label. However Silent witness [from this perspective] is only apparent / felt / alive / uncovered when the small sense of me self has subsided / hidden or disappeared. Then the Witness / Non-self is revealed.
- Is referring to 'the witness' coming from something you've learnt in the past? E.g. some teaching
Possibly yes. But the silent witness is just a label, for the spaciousness / awareness / container / space like sky. I like the idea / label of it - as there is no action, no doing. It is silent - not thinking, not doing. Just pure awareness.
- Can you see how it could help create a new object to potentially identify with?
Yes the super big me / I encompassing all. I think at this stage i probably do use this image / concept / belief as something to latch onto. eg. 'I am like air / space / nothing can touch / hurt the real me'. But this is seen for what it is more and more.
I don't believe there is a solid separate witnesser though. If anything - Witnessing / Awareness is all there is.
I wonder if this is just an area where it's easy to misunderstand language / terms / definitions.
The mind craves an answer to what you are. This enquiry is not about getting a mind based answer to what you are. It is about looking for an 'I' entity and seeing if it is there.
- Have you seen there's nothing there?
Yes when there is pure witnessing / spaciousness / awareness - there is no 'I'. The 'I' thought/ label / concept comes along afterwards to label the state / field / ground / spaciousness - identifying, owning it, clinging to it, craving it.
- If so, what else is there?
In a sense there is silence / beyond sound, stillness beyond movement - there is clarity / luminous presence / awareness so that is not nothing in my book. Those are just words / labels pointing to something indescribable. There is 'Non-self' - is that better? :-)
The word / label 'Nothing', the way i understand it, would be complete blank voidness, no light, no awareness, no life, no creativity, potential etc.
Hence my resistance to saying there is 'nothing'.
On the one hand it 'seems' as though there is nothing, ('seems' as i don't want to assume there is complete nothingness) - in that I see that there is nothing that can be grasped, described, shown, photographed.
However that 'non-self' is who i really am one with / not separate from. I can see this is a subtle label / concept to identify with though. But when 'i am being / one with' the non-self / nothing / pure awareness - there is no small sense of me there, it is dropped / non-arising ie. no separation, no resistance. So at that 'time' there is no label.
Also i would say that 'non-self' sense of being is felt [nearly] constantly as a background even now when 'i am' typing, 'looking' at the screen, 'thinking' what to write. I do see that those are processes that don't need a do-er. They happen, life happens.
i have been looking the past couple of days (it has been hectic though) and noticed - life is happening perfectly fine without self-referential thoughts - however it has been noted that the 'sense of little me' - perks up when judgements come in -
eg. something is seen / felt / sensed - then there is a pleasant / unpleasant sensation and / or there is then a like / dislike and possibly comment - thats good / bad - which immediately translates to 'i like that / i don't like that' 'he should n't have done that' etc.
- Look in your direct experience. Do you see presence / witness or consciousness experiencing itself?
There is only presence / consciousness. However i feel the wave can rise a little above the regular water line to 'look at itself'. 'Bending over backwards'. Or with the use of a metaphorical mirror consciousness can see itself in everything, but it needs to little me to notice it - put it in a jar / box / tin and label it.
Post-seeing, one will live ‘with’ a story of self, but not ‘from’ the self.
Seeing through self and the complete loss of sense of self are not, for most it seems, the same event. Further investigation is required.
Please kindly clarify - 'Further investigation is required' for a complete loss of self? or for seeing through the self. Or just in general in this case :)
The illusion is never actually destroyed. It is merely seen for what it is. An illusion.
It may seem like when you sit in a movie theatre and get taken over by the scene, but then you know a moment later that you are in a movie theatre and that this scene is just an illusion.
Yes i feel that way exactly. Most of the time the drama of life doesn't take over - there is spaciousness / awareness - so less reactivity / fixation / compulsion. However there are some habits / moods / emotions that still come up - less and less held onto it seems...so they last less and less...
Seeing no self is not a personality shift.
It’s a perception shift.
Judgment remains for day-to-day functioning but loses some/much of the force behind it.
yes, thats how 'it' feels. I see clearly that judgements are just labels. Thoughts come and go in the space of 'nothing / non-self'. In most cases this is recognized for what it is. In some cases (especially with close family) it is stickier ground. Like walking a mine field. In experience - when sense of self doesn't arrive there is no resistance and life flows.
Being judgment-free would be a complete loss of humanity.
After realization some suffering from emotions e.g. envy, regret, frustration drops, but not the envy, regret, frustration itself. Perfect and ongoing happiness is a myth.
Agreed.
Some people flop out, but it can't be unseen.
Identification with thoughts and feelings will continue happening.
Yes it is happening with 'me' but less and less.
It’s the thought that this should be different or shouldn't be happening post-realization that is the trap.
Yes the expectation of wanting something different or better and /or the resistance to what is comes up occasionaly but less often.
So just flip in again . Flip-flopping becomes easier. Just look and see it again and again...
Not familiar with the term 'flip-flopping' - please clarify -
'i can' step in and out of thinking / being mode quite quickly easily. I mean to say - sense of me dissolves / is seen for what it is - is shifted out of.
Don't try to grasp for initial gateing,
Sorry what does this mean 'initial gateing'? Grasping? locking down? fixating? solidifying experience?
don't try to memorize as that will just be projecting past on future. Look anew. It's always new and fresh, now. LOOK.
Awesome... cool :)
