Inspired by Jed

[Bananafish]

Aha, I see what's happening to you.

You are seeing "getting lost in thought" in contrast to "maintaining presence".

That's where concepts feel like
something real; in contrast and conflict.


"Maintaining presence" or quieting the mind are often used as spiritual jargons, but what do they mean, really?

Can you try to "maintain presence" now?
What is it that you are doing?

Please actually try.


How is it possible to "maintain" something
when you are present? Present moment is just one present moment, and has anything to do with a duration of a certain state.

Can you see this in your experience?

[Merrick]

So I tried to 'maintain presence'. I tried to not think of anything, but just follow the flow of my breath. Moment to moment. It seems that what I am really doing is replacing "mind-chattering thoughts" with "perceptions of my breath". Now that I think about it, both are the same thing, just perceptions, isn't it?

I guess maintain is a poor choice of word. I should have said "flowing" from 'moment to moment'. Which just means not getting 'lost in thought'. Which I don't even know what that is anymore.

I can see from my experience, that trying to "MAINTAIN" presence is actually getting me OUT of the present. It's an attachment/holding/clinging on to a perception of the "now" that is gone within the very next moment.

This is becoming very much like Zen/Taoist... In that, it seems I am not learning, but unlearning all the things I thought I knew. Everything I thought I knew seems ridiculous now lol... Everything I thought I knew that I considered fundamental is under scrutiny and it seems I didn't "understand" much at all... This is funny/confusing/interesting all at the same time.

[Bananafish]

Hi! Great that you realized it. :)


Now that you've seen it, what's the problem about that "getting lost" thing?

Does it have anything to do with realizing that there is no "I"?

[Merrick]

I think there still is a problem with the whole getting lost thing because I still do not have an experiential/visceral understanding that there is no "I", therefore in this whole getting lost in thoughts thing, thoughts and experiences can feel like a threat that only a "self" would feel is a threat. Most of these thoughts I get lost in revolve around the story of the "self".

[Bananafish]

Is the "self" in the story the self per se?

[Merrick]

No, it appears not. The "self" in the 'story of the self' is nothing I can point to. What the heck is it that is feeling threatened or anxious or whatever.

I was thinking about something today and had some 'ego' thoughts of like 'what they might think of me' and such. I looked, and I thought "what is it that is anxious of 'others' judgments?" There is nothing.

Why do thoughts happen this way (as if there is an "I"). It it just years and years of conditioning?

[Bananafish]

See it as a box.
You put family, furniture, the feeling of warmth, etc. into a box labeled "home".


Is the label (thought) family, furniture, or warmth?
Certainly not.


Is there such a box?
Certainly not, although it feels like so.


Now, what do you put into a box with the label "I"?

[Merrick]

In the box labeled "I", there is body, memories, accomplishments, job, family role, societal role, name, age, race, etc...

Of course, none of these things are 'I', they are just what they are. The body is just the body, not an 'I' or "my body" it's just a "body". Same with everything else. A lot of these contents are also boxes with stuff in them. Boxes within boxes.

It is just as Alan Watts talks about "we prefer the menu over the meal".

[Bananafish]

That sounds pretty much like a well constructed theory, but
how do you see it yourself, in your everyday life? That is what really matters, right?

Not something some Alan Watts said ...

[Merrick]

The way I see it myself in my everyday life is as if the box is real. I protect this box called "I". When the contents of the box are 'threatened', I see it as the box with the label is threatened, instead of just the contents which require no "owner". I protect the box.

[Bananafish]

No, that's still a theory.

Tell me one scene from your daily, ordinary life when the below applies.

I protect this box called "I". When the contents of the box are 'threatened', I see it as the box with the label is threatened, instead of just the contents which require no "owner". I protect the box.

[Merrick]

You're right. I was just making theories. That never happens in my life. I went outside and laid down and really observed this just now. There is no box labeled "I" or anything else. There's just nothingness.

And for what it's worth, here is what I was directly experiencing as I was doing this. For a few seconds there, laying down looking up at the night sky, realizing all of this, it felt like those other experiences I had I told you about. I was just watching life happen. A very non-personal awareness of life, the cars driving by, the dogs around me, just life happening... This lasted a few seconds.

I also had an experience of feeling a little sad at the realization of this nothingness. It was minor and it went away quickly after I just asked myself "who is sad?" lol.

[Bananafish]

There's just nothingness.

What is "nothingness"?

I was just watching life happen.

Where is the watcher of life, right now?

I also had an experience of feeling a little sad at the realization of this nothingness.

Could you elaborate? What was the realization, in a nutshell?

[Merrick]

What is "nothingness"?

"Nothingness" is the only word I can come up with. It didn't feel like anyTHING. It was just emptiness. There was absolutely 'nothing' there. No box, no 'I", no anything I can see or grab or whatever.

Where is the watcher of life, right now?

At first as I was exploring this, it feels like "the watcher is in my head". Then I realized, the 'head' is actually in the 'watching'. The watcher cannot be in the head because the head is being watched. I also realize right now, there is no watcher, just watching...

Could you elaborate? What was the realization, in a nutshell?

The realization 'of nothingness' I experienced at the time that made me feel a bit sad was the realization that I never did/don't exist.

[Merrick]

To clarify, I meant I realize right now there is no watcher, just a "watching" happening without a watcher.