Beyond the ceiling

[Eauvive]

Dear Canfora,

I remember that I've also spent some time looking and looking (maybe some months) just to be sure :)

That's reassuring!

Regarding "once it is seen it can't be unseen", what happens every time you look? Can you always see that a separate self isn't here when you look? Or is it possible to unseen this seeing?

I always see that there is no self and it always comes as a relief. There is still a form of consciousness/sight viewing reality from a specific standpoint. It has no personality at all, it's neutral and empty. Its unique standpoint gives a sense of separateness, but it's not like a separate self, as it isn't a self.

I wonder if you expect to not feel attraction for things that relate to you? Why wouldn't you feel that?

I meant that there is still a particular interest for "me" stuff! There probably was an idea that seeing through the self would bring equanimity. For now, "me" stuff is much less of a magnet, but still very active. "My wellbeing"... it does call for attention.

What do you mean by this: "it is possible to step back and dissolve again the bond with those feelings/reactions/tale/attraction"? Why are you doing this?

I meant that instead of drowning into them, identifying with them and using them as self consolidating blocks, it is possible to see them as part of a flow that doesn't define someone but just manifests. Feelings are being felt without bringing a whole load of stories with them. It's not the same as psychological dissociation (I looked hard to make sure!).

Something big has fallen off, that's for sure. But often there is still some fog around. There is still some doubt, not about the non-existence of a self, but about the clarity of the seeing. How do you refine the seeing? By looking and looking? By living anew? Interesting that you should say this is a beginning with no end in sight.

Take care,

Eau Vive

[Canfora]

Dear Eau Vive,

I always see that there is no self and it always comes as a relief.

Yay!

There is still a form of consciousness/sight viewing reality from a specific standpoint.

What makes you say this is a form? Does it have a location, a shape, a size?

it's not like a separate self, as it isn't a self.

And if you don't think about it, does it still exist?
Can you see / perceive what you are talking about or is this a story about what you are?
Would it be okay not to have a story about what you are?
Is the story needed to be what you are?

I meant that there is still a particular interest for "me" stuff! There probably was an idea that seeing through the self would bring equanimity. For now, "me" stuff is much less of a magnet, but still very active. "My wellbeing"... it does call for attention.

Well, this can lead you into more self awareness and self care, yes. Which is paradoxical and at the same time understandable. I think the pull to seek is a way to try to avoid or escape what is happening and what we think we are (as a person) and when the seeking starts to weaken that movement can balance in the opposite direction, into acceptance and even care.

I meant that instead of drowning into them, identifying with them and using them as self consolidating blocks, it is possible to see them as part of a flow that doesn't define someone but just manifests. Feelings are being felt without bringing a whole load of stories with them. It's not the same as psychological dissociation (I looked hard to make sure!).

Okay, I think I understand what you are saying.

Something big has fallen off, that's for sure. But often there is still some fog around. There is still some doubt, not about the non-existence of a self, but about the clarity of the seeing. How do you refine the seeing? By looking and looking? By living anew? Interesting that you should say this is a beginning with no end in sight.

I think you already know how to look! Ahah... do you have perfectionistic tendencies? (I sure do... just not as much as before) You are doing great, just relax a little, if possible. Do you still feel that you need to accomplish something? If yes, what?

Hugs,
C

[Eauvive]

Dear Canfora,

There is still a form of consciousness/sight viewing reality from a specific standpoint.

What makes you say this is a form? Does it have a location, a shape, a size?

I wrote a form, meaning "a kind" of consciousness. But the question is interesting! It is invisible, so no size, no shape (no form). It can be anywhere in or around my body, but mostly at the back of my head, looking forward. It just takes in sensations and thoughts, as a silent witness. Sometimes it can be experienced just as the empty space where things manifest.

And if you don't think about it, does it still exist?

Yes. It's a constant presence. It's even present in my dreams (as a witness to them).

Can you see / perceive what you are talking about or is this a story about what you are?

I can't see it, but it's not a story. It's the looking itself. It's the being here and now.

Would it be okay not to have a story about what you are?

Oh yes! Much less of a load without stories.

Is the story needed to be what you are?

No. Actually, some of the things that have drastically fallen off are the constant questioning about what I am, the pressure to change and the need to be understood/seen by others. I really feel much freer without those.

do you have perfectionistic tendencies?

How did you guess? :)

You are doing great, just relax a little, if possible.

OK, thanks, I'm sure it's possible!

Do you still feel that you need to accomplish something? If yes, what?

I want to embrace truth as much as possible in this lifetime. But that desire is different to what it was when this conversation started. The strong image of me as "an efficient seeker" isn't there anymore, nor the need to collect intense experiences. What still remains is wanting to be a person who has gone through the gate. That's a me thing, obviously. There, yes, I hit a paradox. It's not always there, but can be floating about.

What I often feel now, is that my head is empty. I look in, there's no one in the head. Before, it was full, and lots of things from the world couldn't be perceived because of that. It's a bit like I'm becoming a clear sky, a space for the thoughts and perceptions to unfold. When what unfolds seems unpleasant, it's not as dramatic as it used to be. It's just part of a complex dance, and as such it won't last.

Thank you, this is great. Writing this tonight, I truly realise of how much useless luggage I have put down over the last few weeks. So grateful.

Hugs to you,

Eau Vive

[Canfora]

Dear Eau Vive,

As always I've enjoyed reading your post.

What still remains is wanting to be a person who has gone through the gate. That's a me thing, obviously.

What do you mean by person?
Are you a person that can go through the gate? How do you know you are a person?

Hugs,
C

[Eauvive]

Dear Canfora,

I hope you are well.

What do you mean by person?
Are you a person that can go through the gate? How do you know you are a person?

It's just a thought. Nothing more. A narrative habit again. There's no more person than there is a gate.

It's fascinating how our conversation needs some "you" and "I" to be understandable. How we can write about no-self, still having to say "I ... this and that" in order to avoid a robotic formulation? And how, most surprisingly, it remains clear nonetheless? I still have to make sense of that (I work with language all the time).

It's great that you enjoy this conversation as much as I do.

Hugs,

Eau Vive

[Canfora]

Dear Eau Vive,

It's great that you enjoy this conversation as much as I do.

Yes, I do!

It's fascinating how our conversation needs some "you" and "I" to be understandable. How we can write about no-self, still having to say "I ... this and that" in order to avoid a robotic formulation? And how, most surprisingly, it remains clear nonetheless? I still have to make sense of that (I work with language all the time).

Yes, it's fascinating. When you have some free time maybe you will enjoy reading Ilona's articles about language and labels:
http://markedeternal.blogspot.pt/2012/0 ... guage.html
http://markedeternal.blogspot.pt/2012/05/labels.html
She explains their role in the illusion really well.

It's just a thought. Nothing more. A narrative habit again. There's no more person than there is a gate.

It seems to me that you are 100% sure that a separate self is an illusion. Are you?
Or do you still have doubts and unmet expectations calling your attention?

If you are sure, would you like to answer LU "standard final questions"? They are a nice way to check if we missed something.

Hugs,
C

[Eauvive]

Dear Canfora,

thank you for your reply and for the references to the articles, they sound hugely interesting.

Yes! Let's go through the standard questions. I've been feeling more and more integrated during these last few days. There's no need to look again all the time, it's fluid. Let's see if anything pops up with the questionnaire.

I'm still baffled that I have felt no big shift, but small ones that seem to have added up to a change of perspective. If there is any doubt, it sometimes creep from that expectation I had of some sort of a Big Bang. "Did it really happen?" sort of. But I also know that that expectation has also gone with what is gone, so doubt will follow.

Hugs to you!

Eau Vive

[Canfora]

Dear Eau Vive,

Ah, the big bang theory! It's very common :)
Wonderful that you can see trough it!
Happy to know you've been feeling more and more integrated!

Here are the first 3 questions. Take your time with them and answer from your immediate experience as much as possible:

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was
there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from
your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
Please report from the past few days.

Hugs,
C

[Eauvive]

Dear Canfora,

Ah, the big bang theory! It's very common :)
Wonderful that you can see trough it!

Ah ah! Thanks for that.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was
there ever?

No. There was the habit of believing in it and channelling every thought and perception through it. Now there is still the ghost of that habit, seen through whenever I stop and LOOK.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from
your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

The illusion of separate self is a conclusion we jump to, a concept. It seems to proceed logically from the way the body-mind system deals with perceptions and witnesses a great flow of phenomena from a unique and intimate stand point. The illusion of self is compounded by mainstream thought, and particularly reinforced in an age of extreme individualism. It has an addictive trend to it, which creates reluctance to see through. It starts very early on, when a collective convention starts to sink into the young child about things and people being separate entities. Language (which shapes the structure of thought) only reinforces this by offering a set of labels. Then the thing is known by its name rather than its truth; or it seems to exist when it actually doesn't, like the self.

I remember standing in my cot, age 2 (?), looking at the room with a sudden powerful sense of "I am" and "This is my life". I went on developing a strong sense of destiny or vocation, linked to artistic inclinations, a passion for learning, the desire to heal suffering in others, various love stories and the idea of progress on a spiritual path. A very intense emotional life gave the impression of always sinking deep into the self; it played a huge role in directing intentions and actions. None of the past experiences are to be thrown in the bin, but those aspirations and narrations are seen as empty; they are seen as motivations, pep-talk and ways to inject meaning into, what? Well, just being. The emotions can be observed as coming and going, as resulting from complex conditions, as belonging to no one at all. They are still felt, though! Fascinating.

For the third question, I'll come back later today (hopefully)!

Thanks and hugs,

Eau Vive

[Eauvive]

Dear Canfora,

In the second question I forgot to mention that the illusion of self also brought the illusion that there would not be any coherence without it. No direction to follow, no steps to trace back, no well defined shell to exist into and to see the world from. Most of the resistance encountered in seeing through the illusion of self was located there. I presumed chaos or meaninglessness would result from that "coherence" giving way.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
Please report from the past few days.

It feels like there is so much more air to breathe in!!

I was operating from an imaginary structure which was quite rigid. The spontaneous train of thought was critical and demanding, it brought insatisfaction, anxiety and the sense that there would never be enough time to do what had to be done. What had to be done, in the end, was just stuff to feed the sense of self. To make sure that the self was "up to a certain standard". There was a constant effort going on in that sense.

Now that train of thought is disarmed. Most of the time, it isn't there. If it pops up, it is noticed and disarmed again. There is always a huge sense of freedom coming from that.

With emotional content, the same thing is taking place. I tended to feel emotions from a thick underwater sludge where everything was complicated and had lots of implications and symbolism and consequences. I never go under water for more than a few seconds anymore. It is enough to just refer to the "emptiness", and I feel free again.

"The emptiness" is comfortable. It is not a lack of meaning, it is beyond meaning, it just is. That is a space that I found when practicing balance poses in yoga about a year ago, and which now can be part of the whole day, just by consciously settling back into it. It's not a space located anywhere, more like a way of being.

In the last few days, I have received positive replies from publishers after two years of rejections. Interestingly, my satisfaction is mostly directed towards the books (which can now start their life away from my desk), not so much towards self achievement. I welcome the change, but I don't feel defined by it. I'm just happy that life is flowing, that obstructions have gone, and I am flooded with tons of new ideas for more writing.

There are still some floaty bits. I am much less efficient now in my daily tasks, since superego has receded... I tend to do what feels right in the moment, and it can create chaotic days. There is still sometimes a habit of wanting to rein in the dispersion ("aaah, what will happen??"). But truly, life is much more pleasant that way.

Relationships also will evolve ( I suppose). For now I feel a sharp drop in neediness, and a rise in availability to others. Emotionally, I am present but more distant. The lack of narratives has thinned the "destiny" aspect of finding each other and the Cupid-like excitement about it. I think I'm still adjusting.

Overall, with so much less going on in the head, reality is much easier to welcome as it is, imperfect and unpredictable. The world seems much richer and I feel wonder and a great curiosity about it.

That's enough! Over to you,

Eau Vive

[Canfora]

Dear Eau Vive,

Those are lovely answers! Thank you for sharing your experience.

I have received positive replies from publishers after two years of rejections.

Ohhhhh..... exciting! Wonderful!

Since some things caught my attention I'll ask some questions about them, hope you don't mind. Here it goes:

You wrote that

the body-mind system deals with perceptions and witnesses a great flow of phenomena from a unique and intimate stand point

What do you mean by the body-mind system? Do you experience yourself has being a mix of body and mind or do you have to think to arrive to this "body-mind system" conceptual point of view?

superego has receded

Is superego more than a concept? Can such a thing be found here/now?

Here are the other 3 questions, take your time with them, no need to rush:

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.
What makes things happen?
How does it work?
What are you responsible for?
Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

Hugs,
C

[Eauvive]

Dear Canfora,

Since some things caught my attention I'll ask some questions about them, hope you don't mind.

Sure, ask away! I will miss it when you won't.

What do you mean by the body-mind system? Do you experience yourself has being a mix of body and mind or do you have to think to arrive to this "body-mind system" conceptual point of view?

It's experience, not concept, although there is some thinking involved into bringing clarity into it. Somehow the complex web of sensations and thoughts has to be accounted for, even if there is no separate self to induce from them. I called it the body-mind system because there is the sense that body sensations and mind activity respond to one another in so many ways, and that, as such, they create something like an intimate inner life. I might as well have called it the pin ball machine!

I don't mean that they are separate from the rest of the universe either. They are completely part of it, dependent on it and in constant interaction with it. They are even "made of it" somehow. But there is still that secret life, witnessed from this singular point of view.

superego has receded

Is superego more than a concept? Can such a thing be found here/now?

No, it's just a concept. I didn't choose my verb very well! I meant that seeing there is no self brought some concepts, like that of the superego,to loosen their influence. They are not powerful thoughts commanding intentions anymore.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

When I was in Montreal in December, we went to the planetarium to watch a show. We sat on reclining chairs and, above us, the screen shaped as a dome gave a 3D effect. At some point, we seemed to move into a shower of meteorites. There I had a perfectly clear experience of being nothing but the space in which the meteorites were moving. With it came the clear vision that all of life's manifestations were just like the meteorites and that, everywhere and always, there was no "me" at all, but only "conscious space".

That was the tipping point. It was prepared by this eroding conversation, and later revisited here from various angles.

As for question 5, wow! Yes, I will take the time it needs. How it all works is not all crystal clear yet, so it's great that those questions are asked.

Hugs!

Eau Vive

[Canfora]

Hello! Looking forward to your answers to Q5! Hugs

[Eauvive]

Dear Canfora,

Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.
What makes things happen?

I can't pretend to know the answer to that. Actually, I found that looking has truly started to deepen when I stopped putting that sort of question between the looking and the seeing. It is still hard not to intellectualise those matters.

But here, from this new perspective, I would instinctively say that decision, intention, free will, choice and control come after the action; they are part of a tale about the action, and serve the purpose of injecting meaning into it and making it fit in a wider life narrative. In the tale, decision, intention, free will, choice and control came first and relate to a self placed at the centre of the game. The action-tale sequence happens so quickly that it is hard to tell which causes which and easy to assume the self-reinforcing version. It is also reassuring to think that there is a someone in control. Not so easy to surrender to the possibility that things/thoughts are happening as the result of innumerable conditions coming together. Once it has been seen that there is no self, though, the latter is the only possible version of facts.

Surrendering in that way opens a vast space for mystery. It is still tempting to give in to the debate about responsibility, ethics and accountability, but at this stage I'd rather sit back and have a taste of the new facets of life which reveal themselves. So to the question:

What are you responsible for?

I find it difficult to come up with an articulate answer at this stage. If there is no self, there is no one to be held accountable. At the same time, it would be cheap to say that unskillful actions simply come from nowhere and, as such, have to be accepted. I could resort to the law of Karma, but at this point it would be a theoretical answer. I still have to travel a bit with the question to clarify it all.

So far, seeing that there is no self has only brought more intuition, compassion and calmness. Those qualities seem like life's default position and anything else feels like an obstacle to the natural flow. What puts up obstacles, what puts them down? An irrepressible combo of conditions? That seems like the most likely answer.

By the same token, to the question:

How does it work?

well... I must humbly reply that I have no idea!

Although I sense flickers of sharp truth brushing against me in quite a strange and new way, I have not yet accessed a completely resolved landscape. If anything, the mystery has deepened. Interestingly, with the illusion of self, we might settle for a superficial and unsatisfactory vision of things, but it has a logic to it. A faked logic, but still. From where I stand now, that vision of things appears like a cheap Hollywood studio rendering made of cardboard. Instead, I see only unexplained vastness, and I don't want to put rational thought on the case.

Give examples from experience.

There are happenings which seem to go with the sense of "going with the flow". Premonitory dreams, for example, or the sense of healing coming through my hands if I help my husband with his illness (when that happens he says he feels things shifting). Sometimes before falling asleep, I seem to glimpse at other realms of existence. I'm sure this question was not about how supernatural life is becoming, but my point is that all those occurrences seem to me more natural now than believing in the self, which narrowed everything.

Maybe I could collect more experiential examples related to that set of questions and come back to you in a few days? In the meantime, I will welcome your input!

Thanks a lot,

Eau Vive

[Canfora]

Dear Eau Vive,

I have to confess that amazes me how deep you can already see through the illusion and the changes that are happening in the way you perceive your immediate experience. You sure are a good writer. My initial experience was intense and at the same time I think it didn't produce as many effects as you seem to be experiencing. It is very curious the way we experience things differently, even when we are apparently looking to the same. It's a joy to read your answers, so thank you for sharing!

Maybe I could collect more experiential examples related to that set of questions and come back to you in a few days? In the meantime, I will welcome your input!

Sure, yes. Take your time. Let me know if you need some suggestions about where to look.

Looking forward to your next post!
Hug
C