End Seeking >>Begin Liberation

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amrita
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Re: End Seeking >>Begin Liberation

Postby amrita » Sun Sep 17, 2017 10:19 am

This sounds great really great brad and accords with my experience :)
Recognition of no self is not something that is here today and gone tomorrow. Having seen the truth I can't unsee it. I hope I can increase the frequency of switching between self and no self. It's on my mind all the time now. It may be that it's on my mind all the time because it is a fresh idea. I don't think so. I see the futility of I-me-mine thinking. Meditaion often seemed like a waste a waste of time. This is real meditation...switching to no self. I can do it anywhere and anytime. it requires no effort. It is super simple.
Lets look at the first three confirmation questions and see if there is any more work to be done here.

Take your time to answer these and write from your genuine experience rather than from an intellectual place if that makes any sense...


1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

Big love

Amrita

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bradd
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Re: End Seeking >>Begin Liberation

Postby bradd » Mon Sep 18, 2017 3:33 am

Hello Amrita
Yes, Please add me to the FB group. I'm on FB and if you search I'm the Brad Driessen with a beard and three kids. Here's the answers to the confirmation questions.
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
1. No, there is no I-me-mine and there never was. I'm still amazed at how simple and apparent this truth is.
2. The illusion of self starts when we are babies. It must be as early as when the child first declares her toys and things as "MINE." The illusion disallows remembering a time when we were not self. Once the idea of self occurs it is constantly reinforced by self talk until we actually believe ourselves to be these separate entities. We mistake the words we practice in our minds to be self. We mistake the sensations/memory/emotion to be self. 100% of thinking is memory. This gives the illusion that the memory is our past - our lives. When we feel emotions like fear we avoid what we believe will be unpleasant. This also reinforces the belief in the idea of self. We become the persons that attempt avoiding unpleasantness. This IS our suffering. The belief in self allows belief that we are suffering instead of just feeling sensation. If there is no self there is no one to suffer. Without self there is no avoiding Life and Living. Living without self just happens. Driving, eating, working, and breathing happen. Living happens and there is no unpleasantness to avoid. Hiding and hesitation are nonsensical. Deciding how to react dependent on the past(memories) is no way to live. It is not I that pulls my hand out of the fire and then remembers not to do it again. It is not I that sees a poisonous snake and runs away. I can begin the process of collapsing self so that I can live now without the belief that the past will help me make better decisions. In the end the ridiculous belief that I am me is so strong that it becomes inconceivable that it could be otherwise. The belief in self becomes so dominant that thinking there is no self is the ridiculous belief.
3. The most important revelations for me had to do with "thinking." I discovered that the voices in my head were not me. How insane is this? I believed that the conversation occurring in mind was I. Crazy. Then the whopper! I figured out that thinking itself was what I thought was me. Double crazy. I was OK thinking that I was not vision, taste, smell, feeling, hearing. It made me think that I was like a living computer with inputs into my brain. But when I figured out that I could in fact LIVE without thinking (and obsessing) about my day to day life I was amazed. When I did the exercises where I was asked to notice direct experience I was thoroughly convinced that thinking was not necessary. Thinking is the thing that reinforced my belief in self. Thinking that thinking was ME was the illusion that kept me from seeing Truth. Knowing that I Lived from moment to moment without thinking to hinder me allowed me to see transparently that self does not exist. After this I saw, for example, that brushing my teeth happens. It does not require a self to perform the function. The only thing that self does for me was allow me to suffer. Human beings have evolved with big brains/memory/belief in self as a means to survive. I-me-mine doesn't need to survive. There are 5 grocery stores within walking distance of my house. I have enough clothes already to last the rest of my life. I don't need to survive and the belief in self keeps me from actually Living a Life.

Thanks again for your time and patience
Brad

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amrita
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Re: End Seeking >>Begin Liberation

Postby amrita » Mon Sep 18, 2017 8:08 am

Fantastic answers!

Here are the final three confirmation questions. Again take your time to answer them from your genuine experience of life. Once you have answered them I will present them to the other guides for further questions or confirmations...

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

Lots of love

amrita

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bradd
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Re: End Seeking >>Begin Liberation

Postby bradd » Tue Sep 19, 2017 2:17 am

Hello Amrita
Here are the answers to the other three questions.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
I think I wrote about this in the last post. The last discovery that pushed me over was mostly that THINKING is SELF. My perceptions, emotions, sensations, and memory all reside in the same "place." It is apparent that none of these THINGS is me. These things are more like input/information to be processed. I might mistake them for me but this is not what blocked me from seeing the illusion of self. Logic/mind told me that these were not truly I-me-mine. What it did not answer is what then IS the thing that I mistake for self. Even the discovery that the voices in my head were not me did not push me over to get a glimpse of self or no self. What really did it for me was not the discovery of what was not self. When I realized what self IS is the thing that made me see. When I was asked to see through Direct Experience it delineated what was real and what was only imagined. My beliefs are not real. My thoughts are not real. Even that is not true. What I am thinking during direct experience I see as true. I wish I had a different word for thoughts during direct experience. Thoughts during direct experience do not involve memory. The thing that pushed me over - past the gate - was that ALL of the thinking that I do involving memory is the equivalent of self. The real biggest deal was the idea that thinking IS self. I needed to practice direct experience to make this discovery.
Even in the week or so after this discovery I had doubts. I still felt frustrated by being constantly bombarded by self=thinking. Self kept invading like a wild animal having its existence threatened. The doubt was good. If I hadn't seriously doubted the existence of self I would not have punched through to see the reality/truth of no self. Like I said in the last post though, once I saw the reality of no self I couldn't unsee it. Now I see it as abandonment of a really bad idea. I saw self as the sky but it was only clouds. My vision of no self is cloudy. With time I think I will have a better view of the real sky. The clouds are my beliefs. My beliefs are partially true. This is the trick-illusion of self. Partial truth is not truth at all! The only Truth is no self. The way I got to this truth is by frustration, seeking, and failure. It really only took one second of seeing the truth to step through the gate.
5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
I'm responsible for not being ignorant. I'm responsible to be aware of no self. I'm responsible TO awareness. I realize that most of the "decisions" in my life have really been nothing more than reactions. My reaction had the cause X and the effect Y. Effect Y caused a reaction (emotion/thought/feeling/memory) that triggered Z. This has gone on billions of times in my mind so that what I believe are choices are really the result of this "process." All of these words including intention and control are the same as what I've described as thinking=self. The self believes/thinks that it is in control but doesn't realize that it is using memory to avoid unpleasant sensation and habituate pleasant sensation. This is not free will, it is just conditioning. This is just another trick of self to make itself believe that it is real. Everything that self "plans" or controls is just an attempt to repeat desirable outcomes from the non existent past. Perhaps a gift of non self is not that I will now be able to control what I couldn't in the past. The gift is just the awareness of the process of becoming a person.
I went to a great magic show last year with 6 completely different magicians. One made things disappear. Another read the minds of audience members. Another pierced completely through his arm with a huge needle. It was great. I knew none of it was real but enjoyed the show anyway. I can see illusion as illusion and reality as reality. I can let things be what they really are. I don't know when a truck is going to come down the street I'm on. Deciding not to walk in the path of the truck is not really a choice. It is just a convention that we follow to not die. Deciding to walk a dog in the park instead of on a busy highway is not a choice. It just happens that I enjoy walking in the park better than dieing on the highway. I am aware of this. I am aware that when my mind is talking and thinking it is on the behalf of self. It is always limiting to "listen" to self. I'm not sure how awareness of non self will affect my life. I don't care. It's gotta be better than being a slave to self. It's OK if I can't control. It's beautiful to be aware and watch Life.
6) Anything to add?
Up to this point in my Life I think my only Teacher has been suffering. ALL of my suffering was caused by my belief in self. I don't have any expectations for the future except a growing awareness of no self. My practice in the last few days was super simple. When I would "catch" myself with words in mind I would recognize them as self and then go to direct experience. Sorta putting the feedback loop of self in reverse. I allow self to exist so that it can unravel...collapse in on itself. This feels like what meditation is truly supposed to be. I've met a couple of Zen Masters and I always seem to ask the question of shortcuts or the direct path. I don't often get a good answer or maybe I just wasn't tuned in. This inquiry process is the best shortcut/direct path to Truth that I've found. I look forward to continue the process of awakening. Thanks to you all that make this available.
I love you all.
Brad

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amrita
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Re: End Seeking >>Begin Liberation

Postby amrita » Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:10 am

Another set of great answers Brad! I will show your answers to the other guides who hopefully will get back with confirmations or further questions for you. My advice is to relax and enjoy this new perspective. In one way its a liberation from an old way of seeing the world and in another its the birth or arising of a whole new process of engaging with life. I will get back to you as as soon as possible.

Big love

amrita x

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amrita
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Re: End Seeking >>Begin Liberation

Postby amrita » Tue Sep 19, 2017 6:37 pm

Hi Brad,

A few more questions which may help clarify things even more...

Seeing through the notion of self is said to have passed through the gate.

Is there I to cross this gate?

Is there a gate to cross?

Is there "I" that continues awakening?

Lots of love

amrita x

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bradd
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Re: End Seeking >>Begin Liberation

Postby bradd » Wed Sep 20, 2017 2:59 am

Hello Amrita,
More answers
Is there I to cross this gate?
When I use the word I in these posts it is just in the convention of the language we use. There is no I or we. We used words in an attempt to describe something that doesn't exist. If you have to explain the joke it's not funny :) Nonetheless, we use our intellect to understand something that is so simple it doesn't require a speck of intellect. Likewise when we use metaphors like the gateless gate it is just a way to point out something that is staring us in the face. Not only is there not an I to cross the gate there isn't even a gate. It's like the line between the sea and the beach. It doesn't exist. There is only water and sand. There isn't an I or a gate. The idea of a gate is real. The idea of a gate is just as real as seeing a gate. The idea of I is so real that billions of people actually believe it. It is thought to be as solid as bones and rock. We think we NEED an I to live. The opposite is true. To truly Live we need to understand the idea of I.
Is there "I" that continues awakening?

I-me-mine is in a dream in the waking state. We believe that sleeping dreams are false and the waking state is true. The waking dream that billions of beings experience is more illusion than the sleeping dream. Awakening occurs as not self. Any other false awakening is just another story for self. If I feel more awake it is just a feeling/belief. I truly don't care about awakening. If awakening is a thing I don't want it. If awakening is stored in memory I don't want it. I'm much better off dumping my old beliefs. I can't wish away my memories but I can doubt what I believe to be true. Nothing about me is true. It's just a game I've been playing with myself my whole life. Enough.
In the last few days I've been pausing and waiting for thoughts to come up. I want to know the functioning of mind. I just look/watch and then wait for mind to do its thing. It's interesting

Thank you
Brad

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amrita
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Re: End Seeking >>Begin Liberation

Postby amrita » Wed Sep 20, 2017 8:11 am

Hi Brad,

More lovely answers!

Few more questions from me...

Would you describe this shift in perception as experiential rather than intellectual? Since starting this inquiry can you honestly say there has been an experiential change in the way you experience life rather than changing a belief about the way things are?

And how have you been these last few days? How is life for you?

And finally, do you have any questions for me or is there anything else you would like to look at?

Much love

Amrita x

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bradd
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Re: End Seeking >>Begin Liberation

Postby bradd » Wed Sep 20, 2017 11:28 pm

Hello Amrita
More Answers.
Would you describe this shift in perception as experiential rather than intellectual? Since starting this inquiry can you honestly say there has been an experiential change in the way you experience life rather than changing a belief about the way things are?
Two words stick out in the question. The first is intellectual. I don't think there is an iota of intellect necessary to see no self. Nothing could be more simple. No thing is more simple. It takes seemingly complex, intellectual ideas and makes them simple, easy to understand. Once no self was revealed it was obvious. I find it most evident while driving. There are trees and houses that are seen. There are sounds. There is driving and yet I-me-mine isn't driving. There's just looking and alertness. It's really incredible. When the self/no self switch inevitably switches to the apparent self mode there is still a lingering awareness. I switch back to no self and just watch and notice what is happening. Words and emotion come up but do not commandeer the mind.
The other word that sticks out is belief. I'm putting into doubt all of my beliefs. I'm not talking about believing "this is good chicken" or "this is a great song." I'm talking about things like identity. I am a man. I am a teacher. Those things may be true but somehow believing these things is limiting. All of my beliefs come from thinking=self. I am a person is a belief. I am angry seems kinda silly. If I believe I'm angry and there is no I, what's the point? If there's no free will what's the point. Might as well just hang out and have fun. Nothing wrong with that. If all of my convictions and beliefs are in question what's the point? Why hesitate in moment to moment interactions? There will be less wasted opportunities to live. To answer the question of whether this is an experiential or belief change is easy. My experience of Life and Living are totally changed by the revelation of self as illusion.
And how have you been these last few days? How is life for you?
All is groovy. I told you I started the new job. I'm working with the profoundly intellectually disabled. Life is Life. I don't feel sorry for the clients I'm serving. They and I are just living life. They don't have to seek no self. They've already achieved it. I don't have to have to give them dignity. If anything they give me dignity by making sure they are comfortable. I keep wondering when the next time I'm going to become angry. I'm kinda looking forward to it so that I can experience awareness of the emotion. That sounds kinda weird but it's the truth. I feel like instead of trying to control things I'm just letting them happen. I wonder if this would be the ideal way to deal with anger management or cognitive behavioral therapy? No self psychotherapy. The mother of all therapies. Hee-hee :)
do you have any questions for me or is there anything else you would like to look at?
I'm wondering where to go from here. I'm at the beginning of something but I don't know what. Am I typical newbie to this and what is a good direction to go from here? I feel like if I went back and reread all of the stuff like the Buddhism I've been doing in the last few years it would all have a different significance. I feel like I've found a direct path to my own real wisdom here. How do you deal with people that you know are still stuck in the illusion of self. I really don't wanna sound preachy but I'd like to point to the direct path if I could. What do you do in situations like this?

Once again, Thank You soooo much
Brad

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amrita
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Re: End Seeking >>Begin Liberation

Postby amrita » Thu Sep 21, 2017 8:11 pm

All is groovy indeed. I was happy to guide you Brad. My advice is relax and enjoy the new perspective.

Amrita x

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bradd
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Re: End Seeking >>Begin Liberation

Postby bradd » Mon May 07, 2018 3:13 pm

I'm checking in on you buddy:) I have tremendous gratitude to you and everyone else at "the gate." I fully expected to be excited about my new found revelations about self and then have the shininess fade away after a few weeks. Instead the realizations continued to unfold. It never faded. Now I see nondual reality (or whatever you wish to call it) in every book, on every walk, in every conversation - all the time. I was slightly fearful over obsessing about it. Instead of obsession I just get a constant reaffirmation of reality. So simple.
I think I'm ready to guide another on the website. Thanks again. Lots of Love.
Brad


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