Looking for a guide to help me through the gate

[samba19]

Did the body lift the arm, or did the arm just lift? If it's the body that controls itself, is it the whole body that controls itself? Or a specific part of the body that controls?

- arm just lifted, can’t say anything beyond that

-Is the body experienced in any other way than through the senses?

- I don’t think anything can be experienced in any other way? I’m assuming that thinking doesn’t count here as ‘experience’.

-Can you see what causes it to move?

- nope, not really.

Could you describe direct feelings from experience? What has been showing up and changed from the beginning? Dive into emotions - Is there joy, gratitude, fear? Please describe from within how these really feel for you.

- well there’s been anger, sadness tightness, joy, openness, all kinds of stuff has been rising up. I could label them all day long but not sure how it would be helpful. there’s more acceptance now, more peace with what is compared what was before. less sticking into stories/thinking which is a nice change too. what has changed also is that it seems emotions kinda get untangled quicker and release with less resistance. that’s the best I can desbribe it in words.

Last night I couldn’t sleep and for the first time suddenly got what it means that experience/experienced/experiencer are the same thing. Not that I’m floating in an ocean of love now, it just became clear. At least for the moment. That was a moment to be remembered too :)

One more thing, I never was able to explain why let’s say a thought about lifting an arm leads to direct experience of the body of ‘Samu’ actually lifting the arm, thought and action seem to be connected somehow. But it doesn’t work that way applied to any other body. Can this be seen through somehow? If not, I’ll just forget about it again.

[WesleySPK]

Hi Samu,

I've just moved so I will respond tomorrow evening.

Hoping all is well with you,
Wesley

[WesleySPK]

Hi Samu,

Thanks for your answers here, good stuff. What you write about your feelings and the change sounds like a good sign to me.

It's nice to get some of those realizations/epiphanies. They may happen as the filter of thinking wears off a little.

One more thing, I never was able to explain why let’s say a thought about lifting an arm leads to direct experience of the body of ‘Samu’ actually lifting the arm, thought and action seem to be connected somehow. But it doesn’t work that way applied to any other body. Can this be seen through somehow? If not, I’ll just forget about it again.

Hmm I don't think this can be 'seen through' just seen for what it is: thoughts arise relating to an action and sometimes that action is carried out by the body. Thoughts arising of other people's bodies acting doesn't (99% of the time) result in that body moving. In all of this, a controller/decider is not found.

Is there any doubt still surrounding existence of a chooser or decider? Can either be found anywhere?

Hug,
Wesley

[samba19]

Is there any doubt still surrounding existence of a chooser or decider? Can either be found anywhere?

Heyah Wesley! No dude, can’t find the chooser or the manager of any body. Or anything for that matter. I don’t know anything anymore. Life happens. Period. :)

xxx
-s-

[WesleySPK]

Hi Samu,

Busy day here will write tomorrow.

-W

[WesleySPK]

Hi Samu,

Great! Wonderful to hear.

Do you feel complete here? I'm glad to hear you don't know anything anymore :D.

-W

[samba19]

Do you feel complete here? I'm glad to hear you don't know anything anymore :D.

Yes, now I’m as stupid as it gets :) done.

-s-

[samba19]

Actually, one more thing about thoughts - can it be seen more accurately why one is able to use thought like imagine stuff but most thoughts just come uninvited?

[WesleySPK]

Actually, one more thing about thoughts - can it be seen more accurately why one is able to use thought like imagine stuff but most thoughts just come uninvited?

I think a "why" question just invites an explanation, which is never 100% true. It's easy to think that there is no thinker when the uninvited thoughts come and go, but when it seems that thinking and imagining is being "used" so to speak, that gets a little more questionable. But...Let me ask, is it 100% clear that the using of thoughts and imagination does not need a thinker, a someone that's thinking or imagining?

For example, another guide wrote this and I just love it: "The arm is lifting but nothing can be found doing the lifting. Therefore the arm isn't lifting? Weird conclusion to come to."

Think of a purple chair right now. This happened, was there an I that made it happen?

Hug,
Wesley

[samba19]

I think a "why" question just invites an explanation, which is never 100% true. It's easy to think that there is no thinker when the uninvited thoughts come and go, but when it seems that thinking and imagining is being "used" so to speak, that gets a little more questionable. But...Let me ask, is it 100% clear that the using of thoughts and imagination does not need a thinker, a someone that's thinking or imagining?

Yes, it’s clear that I can’t find or prove existence of any such thing.

For example, another guide wrote this and I just love it: "The arm is lifting but nothing can be found doing the lifting. Therefore the arm isn't lifting? Weird conclusion to come to."

I’m not sure if I got that one yet :) can it be opened up in another way?

Think of a purple chair right now. This happened, was there an I that made it happen?

No I anywhere (ever). Only thoughts about one.

[WesleySPK]

Hi Samu,

Sure,

"The arm is lifting but nothing can be found doing the lifting. Therefore the arm isn't lifting? Weird conclusion to come to."
I’m not sure if I got that one yet :) can it be opened up in another way?

Sure! A belief sometimes forms after seeing that "I" can't do anything. The belief is that because "I" can't do anything, that means nothing can be done, because where is the one that would do it? However this is like saying that because "I" didn't lift the arm, the arm didn't lift.

Let's revisit this:

Actually, one more thing about thoughts - can it be seen more accurately why one is able to use thought like imagine stuff but most thoughts just come uninvited?

Think of the answer to 10+2. Got it? Now imagine a beach with a horizon, got it? This would be using thought, right? Now sit for 30 seconds or a minute and notice thoughts arising 'uninvited'. Why is anything more needed to know about this? What would you gain?

Hug,
Wesley

[samba19]

Sure! A belief sometimes forms after seeing that "I" can't do anything. The belief is that because "I" can't do anything, that means nothing can be done, because where is the one that would do it? However this is like saying that because "I" didn't lift the arm, the arm didn't lift.

Ok, I still see it as the arm lifting ‘on it’s own’ and no-one doing the lifting, lifting just happening. Assuming I can trust the eyes :)

Think of the answer to 10+2. Got it? Now imagine a beach with a horizon, got it? This would be using thought, right? Now sit for 30 seconds or a minute and notice thoughts arising 'uninvited'. Why is anything more needed to know about this? What would you gain?

Cool, so thoughts can be actively ‘used’ or just observed/ignored. We’ll leave it at that. I guess nothing could be gained. Mental jerk off.

My brain is pretty much fried now. It’s hard to communicate with people or to understand them - this goes both directions. :) I guess I can hang around animals or something. No more questions I guess…

xxx
-s-

[WesleySPK]

Hi Samu,

Cool, so thoughts can be actively ‘used’ or just observed/ignored. We’ll leave it at that. I guess nothing could be gained. Mental jerk off.

Does it feel like this knowledge would somehow reinforce an "I"? Wanting to know 'why' is often a distraction from looking - you may find there are lots of excuses the mind comes up with to avoid looking at things without thoughts.

My brain is pretty much fried now. It’s hard to communicate with people or to understand them - this goes both directions. :) I guess I can hang around animals or something. No more questions I guess…

Maybe that's a good thing to do for a while, spend some time in nature, with animals. Animals really can be wonderful to be around. Why is it hard to communicate with people or understand them?

Hug,
Wesley

[samba19]

Does it feel like this knowledge would somehow reinforce an "I"? Wanting to know 'why' is often a distraction from looking - you may find there are lots of excuses the mind comes up with to avoid looking at things without thoughts.

Probably yes, the “I” would gain something and be happy for a minute and then want something else. And tell me about it - the amount of stories, thoughts and interpretations is never ending.

Maybe that's a good thing to do for a while, spend some time in nature, with animals. Animals really can be wonderful to be around. Why is it hard to communicate with people or understand them?

Yep, can’t go wrong with nature/animals. I don’t know man, it seems I have to repeat what I said like five times and people still sometimes don’t get it. Even with girlfriend this happens. And the other way around too, like I don’t understand what people are saying. Mostly just stories anyway so little interest there to being with.

[WesleySPK]

Hi Samu,

will write in the morning