Requesting guidance

[JonathanR]

Hi Mic,

Gaps between thoughts, it is difficult, not so clear when a thought ends and starts, but possible. What is left is sense input, mostly sensations in the body, also images and sounds. Sometimes easy to be with, sometimes not.

This is where you want to be. Don't make a great effort at it. More like, just rest in it and let go of preconceptions about how it feels, what it is and whether it is working or not. But I want you to notice this from time to time each day for a few days. This appearance of a space or pause between thoughts.

Also look from time to time at pure sensations again. It could be any of the five senses, seeing, hearing, touch,taste, smell. Or even a combination of them, or even sensation going on in the body. Any direct sense experience happening here and now that is not whatever might be thought ABOUT it....but very likely thoughts will appear too.

Let me know how you get on?

Love

Jon

[Treelife]

Thanks Jon
Hope you had a good break away.
I'll work away on these exercises for the next few days.
I'm still on the family holiday and accessing connection is an effort so likely make next response around Sunday or Monday.
Soon
Regards
M

[Treelife]

Thanks Jon
Hope you had a good break away.
I'll work away on these exercises for the next few days.
I'm still on the family holiday and accessing connection is an effort so likely make next response around Sunday or Monday.
Soon
Regards
M

[JonathanR]

Hi Mic,

Have a great time :-)

This fits well with our own holiday plans as we're also away for a week. I'll wait to hear from you. I'll be back from holiday about August 3rd.

love

Jon

[Treelife]

Hi Jon,
I hope your holiday was great, I know mine was.

This is where you want to be. Don't make a great effort at it. More like, just rest in it and let go of preconceptions about how it feels, what it is and whether it is working or not. But I want you to notice this from time to time each day for a few days. This appearance of a space or pause between thoughts.

Also look from time to time at pure sensations again. It could be any of the five senses, seeing, hearing, touch,taste, smell. Or even a combination of them, or even sensation going on in the body. Any direct sense experience happening here and now that is not whatever might be thought ABOUT it....but very likely thoughts will appear too.

I've been working on this as requested. Thoughts are never very far, although with a little intention they can back away.
At first I was getting sensations and thoughts and the experience of the observer. Now it is more prevalent that the experience of the observer is little more than a belief - this seems like a big insight to me when I am in the exercise. When doing the exercises it seems more and more that there is no observer that is just a belief that certain experience represents an observer. It seems that there is nothing but sense experiences and thoughts - nothing else.
But outside of moments of clarity in the exercise it all falls back to the 'I' identity.

Talk soon Jon,
Regards,
M

[JonathanR]

Hi Mic,

Good to hear from you.

. this seems like a big insight to me when I am in the exercise. When doing the exercises it seems more and more that there is no observer that is just a belief that certain experience represents an observer. It seems that there is nothing but sense experiences and thoughts - nothing else.
But outside of moments of clarity in the exercise it all falls back to the 'I' identity.

No matter about the apparent falling back. Don't be put off. You're doing really well.

It's possible to extend this exercise. You have been looking for a kind of space or pause between thoughts and you have noticed that there are thoughts of identification at other times. Now, without any forcing or much effort, start to notice the thoughts appearing too. Disregard their content, what they 'say', what they are ABOUT. At least, don't be bothered if they are ' good' or ' bad' thoughts, thoughts about 'me' or 'mine'. Notice that they come and go and sometimes the silence between or behind them may be noticed?


Love

Jon

[Treelife]

Hi Jon,
Thanks for the prompt response.

...start to notice the thoughts appearing too.....Notice that they come and go and sometimes the silence between or behind them may be noticed?

Can you use another word instead of silence, that word does not work for me (you know how pedantic I get) - the internal experience inside me is not characterized by #silent', the sensations or sense data does not fit with 'silent'. If you can put another word on that it may help me have more confidence in what I think you mean.
Notwithstanding that, in response to your update on the exercise, I find myself looking for the tiny bit of space between the 'no thought' experience (sensations) and the thoughts. I'll work away on this for a while but keep the guidance coming please Jon.

Peace and love,
M

[JonathanR]

Hi M,

. Can you use another word instead of silence, that word does not work for me (you know how pedantic I get) - the internal experience inside me is not characterized by #silent', the sensations or sense data does not fit with 'silent'. If you can put another word on that it may help me have more confidence in what I think you mean.

Yes, sure. I can see how 'Silence' might not work.

To be honest, any word / label for this will be a metaphor and not accurate. We could say 'the undefined state'. Or 'space,', 'gap'. To be honest, others might say 'fullness' and still be trying to point to the same thing. Do you find that in these gaps or spaces there is less mental chatter? It doesn't matter, by the way, if this is noticed for a split second or for a week.

Jon

[Treelife]

Thanks Jon,
That clarification is helpful.

Now, without any forcing or much effort, start to notice the thoughts appearing too.

I notice that the starting point of thoughts is not so clear, not black/white, the exact point of when a thought starts and ends is not so clearly defined. When there is an experience of 'no thoughts' it is invariably an experience of sensations (assuming awareness is active). Then without there being a fully developed thought there is a 'knowing' that emerges out of the sensation. A meaning to the sensation or the experience, or maybe call it an implicit intention. This knowing/meaning does not have words on it or have a visual presentation but give it time and words or visuals are likely to develop - if the process is left undisturbed. The emergence of thoughts appears to be a process more than an event.

Notice that they come and go and sometimes the silence between or behind them may be noticed?

We could say 'the undefined state'. Or 'space,', 'gap'. To be honest, others might say 'fullness' and still be trying to point to the same thing.

Thoughts coming and going is noticeable, but the silence (or gap) behind the thoughts in not were I am at yet. I'll work away on this for a while. I can notice the sensations and all the other activity that is happening around the body - noise is as good a word as any as there is often a lot happening in lots of places. For now what the antenna of awareness can pick up on falls into 2 categories, thoughts/chatter
and sense data. At times awareness can pick up on both of these simultaneously. I'll continue to work away on these for a while.

Do you find that in these gaps or spaces there is less mental chatter? It doesn't matter, by the way, if this is noticed for a split second or for a week.

There is less thought (mental chatter) when there is less thought. Perhaps simultaneously to the thought (chatter) activity there is a place where there is less thought/chatter. Hmmm I don't know, maybe different locations, need to explore that one more closely. Especially when the thought is at that low level, the emerging thought that has not yet formed into words or sentences or pictures but there is a difference between the sensation and the emerging intention, meaning, knowing. I'm not sure on this last question, needs more input.

I continue to work on this but I am in new territory here so please guide me as I stray.
Oh by the way, I find the best way to get this exercise done is incorporating it into my daily meditation practice. I do try drop mini exercises into the day but they yield less data/insights and they have to compete with a lot of other distractions for my attention - especially in work or at home with the kids.

Thanks a mill and talk soon Jon,
M

[JonathanR]

Hi M,

I notice that the starting point of thoughts is not so clear, not black/white, the exact point of when a thought starts and ends is not so clearly defined. When there is an experience of 'no thoughts' it is invariably an experience of sensations (assuming awareness is active). Then without there being a fully developed thought there is a 'knowing' that emerges out of the sensation. A meaning to the sensation or the experience, or maybe call it an implicit intention. This knowing/meaning does not have words on it or have a visual presentation but give it time and words or visuals are likely to develop - if the process is left undisturbed. The emergence of thoughts appears to be a process more than an event.

Terrific work!

Do you notice that thoughts often do start up uninvited (so to speak)? It's worth seeing how that happens a few times.

Do you find that such thoughts are often like announcements, commentary, that may judge what is thought to be going on?

Do you notice that when thoughts do start up (as they so often do), that the idea of 'I' or 'me' is nearly always assumed? Perhaps the idea of an 'experiencer' that is 'experiencing experience'?

Thoughts coming and going is noticeable, but the silence (or gap) behind the thoughts in not were I am at yet

Don't aim for this too intensively as it can be thoughts that start to try to 'make this happen'. Another way 'in' is to notice all thoughts as like lots of different bits of cloud, some that join up into a big cloud, some smaller, that all cross the open space of the sky.

Just don't bother to react to the content of each thought. The main thing is to notice that in this respect thoughts do behave rather like clouds crossing a sky, or the projection of a moving feature film with actors and story against the neutral backdrop of the cinema screen.

I'll work away on this for a while. I can notice the sensations and all the other activity that is happening around the body - noise is as good a word as any as there is often a lot happening in lots of places. For now what the antenna of awareness can pick up on falls into 2 categories, thoughts/chatter
and sense data. At times awareness can pick up on both of these simultaneously. I'll continue to work away on these for a while.

Very good work!

I continue to work on this but I am in new territory here so please guide me as I stray.
Oh by the way, I find the best way to get this exercise done is incorporating it into my daily meditation practice. I do try drop mini exercises into the day but they yield less data/insights and they have to compete with a lot of other distractions for my attention - especially in work or at home with the kids.

Ha ha! I know exactly what you mean by work and kids! but such everyday 'challenges' can provide great opportunities for the illusion at work. Meditation can be valuable too.

love

Jon

[Treelife]

Thanks Jon that is useful direction.

Do you notice that thoughts often do start up uninvited (so to speak)? It's worth seeing how that happens a few times.

Yes I notice, I'll watch more closely.

Do you find that such thoughts are often like announcements, commentary, that may judge what is thought to be going on?

Yes Defo some thoughts are announcements, some are commentary and certainly lots of judging thoughts.

Do you notice that when thoughts do start up (as they so often do), that the idea of 'I' or 'me' is nearly always assumed? Perhaps the idea of an 'experiencer' that is 'experiencing experience'?

Certainly there are thoughts that are clearly 'I' identified. I'll look more closely at the rest of them and see which ones fall into this category and which ones don't.

Thoughts coming and going is noticeable, but the silence (or gap) behind the thoughts in not were I am at yet
Don't aim for this too intensively as it can be thoughts that start to try to 'make this happen'. Another way 'in' is to notice all thoughts as like lots of different bits of cloud, some that join up into a big cloud, some smaller, that all cross the open space of the sky.

I'll work on this but may need to come back to this one again Jon.

I'll work away on this for now. Thanks again,
Regards,
M

Just don't bother to react to the content of each thought.

I'm good with not reacting to thoughts.

The main thing is to notice that in this respect thoughts do behave rather like clouds crossing a sky, or the projection of a moving feature film with actors and story against the neutral backdrop of the cinema screen.

Good analogy.

[JonathanR]

Hi M,

. Certainly there are thoughts that are clearly 'I' identified. I'll look more closely at the rest of them and see which ones fall into this category and which ones don't.

Good. And is it possible to find an experiencer of experience?

Or is experience just happening?

How about a 'thinker of thoughts'?

Do 'you' 'think thoughts'
Or do thoughts think 'you'?



Love


Jon

[Treelife]

Hi Jon,

That was intense......
There is something about letting go. I know you are asking who is letting go what? The I is in the thoughts, the existence of beliefs; thoughts create ’I’, not ‘I’ creating thoughts. Letting go is thoughts letting go thoughts. That is very difficult, in order to do the exercise I have to be aware of inner process. The inner process show that thoughts start at a very low level – beyond words and visuals (we discussed yesterday). There is a knowing or an understanding or intention implicit within the experience of sensing (sense data). I like the word intention, it is a very useful word at this stage. The lowest level of thought (almost sub-thought) that I can get to is intention. The very act of being aware of the inner process requires the intention of being aware, to even bring my awareness into activation and defo to hold my awareness on the inner process (of thoughts and sensations) requires the intention that to do that , or the intention to do the exercise. It is like this knowing that I am aware, knowing that there is a sensation has a thought process inherent in it – intention. The thought process on intention is very subtle, the most subtle thought process I can identify – I cannot get any lower that that so far. This intention, or wanting (wanting to know, wanting to see, wanting to not fall over on the chair) has a very subtle observer, a very subtle ‘I’ inherent in it. The ‘wanting’ is ‘I’.

I did get some glimpse (for maybe a second) on maybe a couple of occasions of no self; no intention, therefore no thoughts therefore no self (no I). It was a very intense experience with strong sensations, letting whatever was to happen just happen, it required letting go all intentions, all wanting. That letting go was difficult! Letting go intention without having the intention of letting go is quite the paradox I tell you Jon. Letting go while still holding awareness, letting go without falling asleep or falling off the chair....letting go without being overwhelmed with something else (hmmmmm). Letting go while also getting a sense that there is something very big..... I don’t quite know how to finish this sentence. Let me say something like, letting go of the ego that perhaps does not want to be let go of – hmmmm that seems a little too analytical. So to answer the question who is letting go of what? Thoughts letting go of thoughts to glimpse the no thoughts, no self.
I know I have over shout the exercise you gave me but once I got down there this all seems to be clear and seemed the obvious direction to go in. For sure it is apparent that ‘I’ arises out of thoughts. The less thoughts the less strong the sense of ‘I’. But on another level, when I get down deeper there is a feeling of I, a sensation in my solar plexus that I identify with. Yet when I explore it, it shifts and intention/thoughts seems to be what holds it all together.
I am no sure how all this will look in a couple of hours but this is what I have just after coming out of the exercise.
I may not be available tomorrow so failing that I’ll be back online Sunday I hope.
Peace and love Jon,
M

[JonathanR]

Hi M,

It is like this knowing that I am aware, knowing that there is a sensation has a thought process inherent in it – intention. The thought process on intention is very subtle, the most subtle thought process I can identify – I cannot get any lower that that so far.

Please keep it simple. All you need to do is notice. And is it really the case that 'you' 'notice' , ...or noticing happens?

. I did get some glimpse (for maybe a second) on maybe a couple of occasions of no self; no intention, therefore no thoughts therefore no self (no I). It was a very intense experience with strong sensations, letting whatever was to happen just happen, it required letting go all intentions, all wanting. That letting go was difficult!

But it happened. Well done! Do you think that letting go can be about letting go of the illusion that 'I must let go'?

How does letting go happen then?

Love

Jon

[Treelife]

Hi Jon

Please keep it simple. All you need to do is notice. And is it really the case that 'you' 'notice' , ...or noticing happens?

Yes I will try keep it simple, and please keep hauling me back to basics. Simple is not really my default setting so I will keep trying to get back to simple.

But it happened. Well done!

Thank you.

Do you think that letting go can be about letting go of the illusion that 'I must let go'?

Good question, I am not sure. The experience was letting go of thoughts, pre thoughts, intentions. Not being captured by them. It is as if I had to let the thoughts completely go (even letting go intentions to not have thoughts) to get to the point of being disinvested of them. I can imagine that it would be great to be able to have thoughts in my head without being so invested in them. To experience no 'I' while still able to have a thought but not being the thought. Hmmm 'the illusion that I must let go', does seem to fit in with that. To be disinvested of them is akin to letting go the illusion. I'll give some consideration to the illusion question.
I am somewhat distracted with family commitments this weekend so not much time for LU but I'll be back to it in the next couple of days Jon.

I do appreciate your guidance here Jon and sorry for my going off on tangents, please understand that this is very much new territory for me.

With thanks,
M