Liberation

[Smarambas]

Hi Jon,

Here I am for this morning report.

I had a walk yesterday evening, and I explored the landscape while looking outside the train's window and I was amazed. Everything is alive. Rocks, poles, fences, clouds, everything. Watching and hearing became poetry. Everything is a beautiful poem. Even a pebble on my way to work had so much... importance? Is not the right word, but it was so powerful, so alive.

I found that we judge with thoughts based on other thoughts. That deepens the illusion. That's why it's right to "trust" only direct experience, because a moment before that is expectation, a moment after is memory. And we can't trust either of them. Otherwise we will believe that there is something other than present.

That "deepening sensation" I had yesterday was an illusion, because I was judging it with memory and expectations. Every sensation is as it is, there is no wrong or right, deeper or lighter.

See you later!
Thanks,
F

[JonathanR]

HiF,

Perfect! I'm so pleased for you! What you said about the walk was beautiful. Really.

Also,your observations about thoughts are excellent.

. That "deepening sensation" I had yesterday was an illusion, because I was judging it with memory and expectations. Every sensation is as it is, there is no wrong or right, deeper or lighter.

It is good that this is seen for how it is! Yes. Thought is always interpretation, conjecture, as you say, expectation and memory too.

At first there can be nervousness that 'I have forgotten' or 'I never saw no self'. Or 'I need to make it happen'. These thoughts can be believed for a while until somehow they are seen through without any effort. Is it clear that there isnt even a self that 'wakes up'?

Warm wishes

Jon

[Smarambas]

Hi Jon,

At first there can be nervousness that 'I have forgotten' or 'I never saw no self'. Or 'I need to make it happen'.
These thoughts can be believed for a while until somehow they are seen through without any effort. Is it clear that there isnt even a self that 'wakes up'?

I am still influenced by those type of thoughts. I get carried away sometimes, that's how I found about expectations and memory, until I get brought back to the moment. This doesn't sound right though.

I would say that more than an "I" waking up, the switch is from focus on thoughts to presence in the moment. If I "hear" the voice saying "I am in the moment" I don't feel like that thought belongs to me or that I represents me. It's like some thoughts are masked as sensations. In particular the "this is not right" it's not a voice anymore, it's a feeling. That puts a bit of confusion in me.

Can you help me with this?

Thank you,
F

[JonathanR]

Hi F,

. I am still influenced by those type of thoughts. I get carried away sometimes, that's how I found about expectations and memory, until I get brought back to the moment. This doesn't sound right though

Ok. No problem. . These kinds of thoughts are the illusion appearing.

Who or what 'gets carried away'? Look for the one that is supposed to get carried away.

Is this why it then seems that there is a self?

Perhaps there is a grain of truth here though? Attention has somehow gone to thoughts about one thing or another and then up pops a thought about 'getting carried away'?

Was a self involved at any stage? Was a real entity carried somewhere? Did one appear out of thin air to then be carried away? Did it 'come back' later on or did all this happen as thought-story?

. I would say that more than an "I" waking up, the switch is from focus on thoughts to presence in the moment.

Perfect.

Where is the 'I' tgat could 'wake up'?

. If I "hear" the voice saying "I am in the moment" I don't feel like that thought belongs to me or that I represents me.

Good. It doesn't. Is it clear that this is just one of many announcements that come from thought?

(Some thoughts may actually be useful in an everyday context, such as 'That car is approaching fast so I will not cross in front of it'. )

. It's like some thoughts are masked as sensations. In particular the "this is not right" it's not a voice anymore, it's a feeling. That puts a bit of confusion in me.

Could you give me an example of this, please? I need to understand what you are saying



Thanks,

Jon

[Smarambas]

Hi Jon,
I wrote a much longer post but in the meantime something got solved, something else clicked, so I prefer to focus on something that I can’t get rid of.

(Some thoughts may actually be useful in an everyday context, such as 'That car is approaching fast so I will not cross in front of it'. )

If we don't take any decision or action, of what use could be that thought?
Thanks,
F

[JonathanR]

Hi F

If we don't take any decision or action, of what use could be that thought?

I'm tempted to say that you should be able to think of at least one good use for it, but I see what you are driving at.


So, a self does not create the thought but there is a habitual reference to 'me' that has been imagined to live 'in the body'?

'Decisions' or 'actions' seem to happen. Do you find this?

'We' may not 'take decisions or actions' but what appear to be decisions and actions seem to happen anyway

. Thus the body does not run out under a car. It may seem that someone elected to not run out. It might seem that someone had the thought to not run out. Perhaps it may seem that there was a use for the thought? Who or what 'used it'?

But the body is still not crushed by the car

Does that make sense?

Thank you,

Jon

[Smarambas]

Hi Jon,

I hope I didn't offend you, what I meant was of course what use is that thought for the "self", the "being". I understand the logical use for that thought, that was out of discussion.

If I seemed arrogant I am really sorry.

Thanks,
F

[JonathanR]

Hi F,

No irs okay. I wasn't offended at all. Did it seem that way?

. You have been really looking and working at this inquiry.. I respect you for that.

'What use is that thought for the self?

Aren't you answering that by asking it? The question seems rhetorical.

How can any thought be useful for a self?

Is there a self outside of thought?


Love

Jon

[Smarambas]

Hi Jon,

. You have been really looking and working at this inquiry.. I respect you for that.

Thank you Jon for your patience and you help. It is much appreciated.

'What use is that thought for the self?

Aren't you answering that by asking it? The question seems rhetorical.

How can any thought be useful for a self?

Is there a self outside of thought?

I can see your point. Now I have this idea of focus, so basically to what is giving attention. Problem is that is probably some trick to try to identify with something. What do you think?

Thanks,
F

[Smarambas]

To add some detail to it, the point is I'm not always present. Sometimes I get carried away and it takes a while to become present again. Moreover, it seems like being present is something that I need to do, an act. And when I ask myself who needs to be present? Again silence. But after a while I get lost again.
I suppose if I truly, completely or whatsoever saw the lie about "I" it should be permanent. Because once you know that santa doesn't exist you can't believe in it again. So I feel like if I don't keep the focus, I start to believe in santa again.
Thank you,
F

[JonathanR]

Hi F,

Thank you Jon for your patience and you help. It is much appreciated.

You are very welcome :-)

To add some detail to it, the point is I'm not always present. Sometimes I get carried away and it takes a while to become present again. Moreover, it seems like being present is something that I need to do, an act. And when I ask myself who needs to be present? Again silence. But after a while I get lost again.

Maybe don't ask 'who'? 'Who' already implies an entity or 'I'. Ask 'what'?

What is 'getting lost'?

Where is 'lost' as distinct from an imagined state of being 'not lost'?

Is it feeling that someone is not Here, Now? Perhaps look directly at a sensation such as feeling in the hands to notice a difference between this real sensation happening right now and the idea of 'lostness' that is happening (also right now) in imagination?

In the story about getting lost, is there ever a 'you' that 'gets lost' or is it a thought-story about someone that gets lost? Look for a one that is supposed to be lost.

This lost and found theme may play out for a long time but do you see that it never conditions what you are? Whatever 'you' are remains unbound by these or any other thoughts.

I suppose if I truly, completely or whatsoever saw the lie about "I" it should be permanent. Because once you know that santa doesn't exist you can't believe in it again. So I feel like if I don't keep the focus, I start to believe in santa again.

This is all thinking about what should or shouldnt be, what is 'supposed' to be.

We are not inquiring to suppose anything.

Look at the 'I' you mention. You have to look at it, find it.


best wishes,

Jon

[Smarambas]

Hi Jon,

Maybe don't ask 'who'? 'Who' already implies an entity or 'I'. Ask 'what'?

What is 'getting lost'?

Great idea, that will definitely help.

About the rest, again is difficult to put it to words.

Is it feeling that someone is not Here, Now? Perhaps look directly at a sensation such as feeling in the hands to notice a difference between this real sensation happening right now and the idea of 'lostness' that is happening (also right now) in imagination?

It's not at all like someone gets lost, is more like what you say about looking directly at a sensation: who/what is doing that? Why there is the need of focusing on something limited as the hand and not being present feeling everything? There are some moments when it's possible to feel an incredible amount of sensations. Like hearing all the sounds at the same time without focusing on one in particular while feeling all my body, breath, space around me and more! This is what is causing confusion to me. How can I understand which of the two is the illusion? The fact that the "focus" has a limit of extension or those sporadic moments of strong presence when everything is felt and experienced?
I feel that the presence with no limits to the focus feels more natural, "awake", while the other one feels like dreaming.

I tried asking who/what wants to know this, but is not helping or probably I'm not asking the question in the right way.

Sorry for the mess... thank you Jon,
F

[JonathanR]

Hi F,

Sorry for the mess... thank you Jon,

Please, no need to apologise. I'm very pleased to try to help.

It's not at all like someone gets lost, is more like what you say about looking directly at a sensation: who/what is doing that? Why there is the need of focusing on something limited as the hand and not being present feeling everything?

Is there a need for focus? What happens if you don't try to focus?

It may appear to be 'someone', doing the looking. Whenever there is that thought, look for the one that is supposed to be doing looking.

Is 'being present and feeling everything' an expectation? What happens if there is no being present or feeling everything?

Is 'a hand' limited? Check the sensation.

Is there 'a hand' in the direct experience? With eyes closed, look at the sensations in or around what is commonly labeled 'the hand'. Is an 'I' to be found experiencing experience? ?

This is what is causing confusion to me. How can I understand which of the two is the illusion? The fact that the "focus" has a limit of extension or those sporadic moments of strong presence when everything is felt and experienced?
I feel that the presence with no limits to the focus feels more natural, "awake", while the other one feels like dreaming.

What is this 'focus', exactly? What 'does focus'?

Focus would seem to need a manager to maintain it? An 'I' perhaps? Has a manager of focus been found yet?

love

Jon

[Smarambas]

Hi Jon,

Is there a need for focus? What happens if you don't try to focus?
What is this 'focus', exactly? What 'does focus'?
Focus would seem to need a manager to maintain it? An 'I' perhaps? Has a manager of focus been found yet?
It may appear to be 'someone', doing the looking. Whenever there is that thought, look for the one that is supposed to be doing looking.

By need to focus I was referring to your advise to look directly to the hand and feel the sensation. So in this case the need to focus driven by the experiment?
By focus I mean being present, looking to a certain sensation in particular. Not being focused is that dream-like sensation where basically you are loosing a lot of detail of what is actually happening. Let's say like when you are deep in your thoughts and you "lose track" of what is happening around you.
I don't know what this focus-presence is, but it feels like I need to put effort to maintain it. To not be dragged into thoughts and so. It doesn't feel like there is an I, but it feels like there must be an intent to be focused-present. This manager seems to be something that generates the intent of looking at the hand to feel the experience of the hand (by hand of course I mean what is labeled as a hand). You asked to try looking at the hand, the focus-present moved to the hand. It seemed like somehow I controlled the process. Where is this I? This manager? I don't know. I can ask those questions and feel the silence and at the same time keep moving this focus presence from the "hand" to the "elbow".

Is 'being present and feeling everything' an expectation? What happens if there is no being present or feeling everything?

Yes, this could be an expectation. But without being in the present, is being in that dream-like state where all the sensations are blurred. When I was present and so I think I felt the truth. There were no worries, doubts or anything.

Is 'a hand' limited? Check the sensation.
Is there 'a hand' in the direct experience? With eyes closed, look at the sensations in or around what is commonly labeled 'the hand'. Is an 'I' to be found experiencing experience? ?

The sensations around the hand feels more like a cloud of sensations. It's not hand shaped or else, as you said hand is just a label to indicate a point in space for this experiment. But If I look at the sensations there, I don't know what is happening in the left foot, as an example.
While there is no I experiencing the experience there is something looking in that direction, diverting the attention to the hand-zone, the same thing that was told by you to look in that direction.

I tried to write everything as it was without elaborating in order to help you in having a clear idea of what is going on and me to try not to fell more into illusions.
Thanks!
F

[Smarambas]

Another example: this "focus manager" is the same that is looking for an "I". What is that then? It's not the I in the thoughts, but it's still something, or at least it feels like something. It feels like this thing that is looking blocks me from loosing the duality. Because until it stays it will always be this thing, looking for a non existing self, and everything else.

Confused, but that's what I'm actually feeling.

Thanks Jon,
F