Requesting guidance to break through separation anxiety and overworking tendency

[emilyn]

Do you think there may be other ways of checking if a self is real, other than noticing what is here and looking for such a thing?

Hey Sandra, I'm not sure of other ways. Actually, don't think I've ever used this method of noticing what is here and just simple looking. I mean, with what I've learned at school and all the trainings, to prove that something is real or not, there have to be a lot of research and analyses and experiments, etc. Just because we cannot see it with our naked eye doesn't mean it doesn't exist. For example, gravity. It cannot be described or seen or heard, but if you drop a glass, it falls, and we can "see" gravity in action that way.
With 'self' - I don't know if just simple looking and not finding it is enough to prove that it doesn't exist?

I have the impression you have doubts or are disappointed. Do you think something is missing?

Mmmmmm... not really disappointed. Maybe I'm at a loss at what to do next? like a 'so what?' kind of question. Because after looking at what's here and not seeing the 'self'... and then what?

Thank you Sandra!

[Canfora]

Hi Emily,

I don't know if just simple looking and not finding it is enough to prove that it doesn't exist?

This also applies to Santa Claus. Do you believe Santa may exist? You can experience as many thoughts about Santa as you like and even a bunch of feelings. Do they make Santa real?

There are raw experiences: hearing, seeing, touching, smelling, and tasting. There are sensations in the body (hunger, thirst, or pain). This is what we refer to as direct experience. This is the level of experience of cats, dogs, birds, and newborn babies. Then there are thoughts. Thoughts layer concepts over these raw experiences. A thought or concept or label is never the actual. Some thoughts point to the actual, and some point to other thoughts. This is the realm of make-believe. This is the realm of “I.” Is there an “I” in direct experience?

Some thoughts point to real things: computer, desk, body. Other thoughts point to imaginary things: Batman, Santa, self. The thought itself is real, we experience it in reality. But the content of the thought is an image literally, imaginary. When you think of a cup, you have an image of the cup in mind, but you cannot pour tea into it or drink out of it.

Do this little exercise. Close your eyes and imagine you are holding a watermelon in your hands. Imagine it so vividly that you can feel its weight, the shape and texture of the skin. Hold it there, sensing it, and open your eyes. What happened to the melon? How about the sensation that was so believable? That which is real can be sensed in one or more ways. That which is imagined exists only in the mind.

If you look at this:

Maybe I'm at a loss at what to do next? like a 'so what?' kind of question. Because after looking at what's here and not seeing the 'self'... and then what?

These are thoughts yes? Do they prove the existence of a real you that is doing this inquiry and experiencing a "and then what?" mental state?

Take care,
S

[emilyn]

Hi Sandra!

Do you believe Santa may exist? You can experience as many thoughts about Santa as you like and even a bunch of feelings. Do they make Santa real?

No. I don't believe Santa exists. I don't have many thoughts and feelings about Santa... I just know there is no Santa :)
I remember being around 9 years old when my Mom broke the news to me that there was no Santa... I was disappointed for a while... but then moved on. I accepted it as a fact. It seemed plausible. I didn't question it much.
Later on when I lived in Finland, there was information about a Santa Claus village in Northern Finland where people could write letters to Santa and get responses and see Santa's house... The village is real, the letters and responses are real, Santa's house is real... but I just know there is no 'real' Santa but it is an imaginary character, played by some volunteers...

A thought or concept or label is never the actual. Some thoughts point to the actual, and some point to other thoughts. This is the realm of make-believe. This is the realm of “I.” Is there an “I” in direct experience?

There is no "I" in direct experience. It cannot be seen, felt, tasted, heard, smelled, touched... What is in direct experience is just the body.

What happened to the melon? How about the sensation that was so believable? That which is real can be sensed in one or more ways. That which is imagined exists only in the mind.

The melon exists only as an image in the mind.

If you look at this:

Maybe I'm at a loss at what to do next? like a 'so what?' kind of question. Because after looking at what's here and not seeing the 'self'... and then what?

These are thoughts yes? Do they prove the existence of a real you that is doing this inquiry and experiencing a "and then what?" mental state?

Yes these are just thoughts. They do not prove the existence of a real "I" that's doing the inquiry or is experiencing a certain mental state.

Thank you Sandra!

[Canfora]

Hi Emily, thank you for your answers!
If there is no separate you to be found here and now, what do you find here that is doing this inquiry? And what is expecting to see its own absence? Can a imaginary entity see that it's imaginary?
Take care,
S

[emilyn]

Hi Sandra!

If there is no separate you to be found here and now, what do you find here that is doing this inquiry? And what is expecting to see its own absence? Can a imaginary entity see that it's imaginary?

No idea, Sandra. Who/what is here that's doing this inquiry, seeing its own absence, or seeing that it is imaginary? No idea... There's no answer to be found for this for now...

[Canfora]

Hi Emily. What did you do to find that answer? Did you look into your immediate experience? Did you notice what is present and going on?

[emilyn]

What did you do to find that answer? Did you look into your immediate experience? Did you notice what is present and going on?

Hi Sandra,
At first I got intellectual and tried to figure it out, but could not find any answer.
Then after reading your latest questions, I look at what's present and seeing a bunch of thoughts, one after another after another. The body is here. Thoughts are here.

[Canfora]

Hi Emily! How about a self, a entity, a thing that is what thoughts seem to point to? Can such a thing be found? Do you see a self?

[emilyn]

How about a self, a entity, a thing that is what thoughts seem to point to? Can such a thing be found? Do you see a self?

No self or entity can be found... It cannot be seen.

[Canfora]

Remember what you wrote about knowing that Santa Claus isn't real? Are some illusions more illusory than others? Or is an illusion an illusion, no matter how many times it pops up? What is the difference between knowing Santa isn't real and seeing a self can't be found?

[emilyn]

Hi Sandra,

Are some illusions more illusory than others? Or is an illusion an illusion, no matter how many times it pops up? What is the difference between knowing Santa isn't real and seeing a self can't be found?

I don't think some illusions are more illusory than others. There are illusions that we fall for a lot more often than others, but they're all illusions, nevertheless.

Knowing Santa isn't real, knowing that the equator isn't real, knowing that there's no such thing as Batman, etc. essentially they're not at all different from seeing that a self can't be found. It is just that the 'self' is so integral in how we live life that it seems more persistent of an illusion than other illusions.

When I learned that Santa wasn't real, the implication was that now I don't need to behave well so that I can get a present for Christmas. I'm not afraid of having my behaviors judged and assessed upon which, I will get a present... When I learned that Santa wasn't real, I didn't doubt it or question it either because I'd never seen Santa anyway... only tales of him, but never saw him in person. This realization/knowledge didn't change my life in a big way though.

In a sense, I feel that the 'self' is so ingrained in language and thinking patterns that 'not seeing it' is still existing on a surface, superficial level for me.

Also, I can't find the answers to your original questions:

If there is no separate you to be found here and now, what do you find here that is doing this inquiry? And what is expecting to see its own absence? Can a imaginary entity see that it's imaginary?

What is the answer?

Thank you Sandra!

[Canfora]

Hi Emily,

In a sense, I feel that the 'self' is so ingrained in language and thinking patterns that 'not seeing it' is still existing on a surface, superficial level for me.

This is interesting. How do you know there is something to see that you aren't seeing already? Isn't everything that can be seen present here?

What is the answer?

Did you look for the answer? If you don't look to what is here, you will not see the answer.

Take care,
S

[emilyn]

Hi Sandra,

Something else also occurs...

The difference between *looking* to see if Santa is real, the equator is real, pink elephants are real, Batman is real... and 'self' is real, to me, is this:
In the former cases, we always know what we're looking for looks like. Santa is a big old man with white hair and beard, who flies around with his reindeer in the sky. The equator is a line around the middle of the earth. Pink elephant is an elephant of pink color. Batman is a guy with bat wings flying around... etc.

In all of these cases, we know exactly what we're looking for, and when we look around and cannot find it anywhere, we can say it does not exist.

However, in looking for the 'self', the starting point itself is not clear at all. We don't even know what exactly we're looking for... we don't know what it looks like, then how do we know when we find it? then how can we say that it does not exist?

Thank you Sandra!

Emily

[emilyn]

Second post today:

To answer your question by looking at what's here:

If there is no separate you to be found here and now, what do you find here that is doing this inquiry?

What's doing this inquiry right here is the body. Fingers movement. Thoughts, sensations, feelings, awareness.

And what is expecting to see its own absence? Can a imaginary entity see that it's imaginary?

Still no idea to these questions...

[Canfora]

Dear Emily,

And what is expecting to see its own absence? Can a imaginary entity see that it's imaginary?

Still no idea to these questions...

Ah, forget these questions. They are causing confusion, throwing them here wasn't one of my best ideas. We can talk about this again if necessary.

What's doing this inquiry right here is the body.

I assume you think the body is what you are? If that's the case, is the body the self we are looking for?

However, in looking for the 'self', the starting point itself is not clear at all. We don't even know what exactly we're looking for... we don't know what it looks like, then how do we know when we find it? then how can we say that it does not exist?

You have been looking and you did find what can be found here - at least it seems to me you did look to what can be found:

the body. Fingers movement. Thoughts, sensations, feelings, awareness.

You've found what surrounds you and the body and thoughts and sensations. Yes? Do you think it is possible to find more than this?

You know how to find what is here to be found. Or do you think you are missing something? Do you think it is possible that there is a self, an entity that isn't here? Can you be something that isn't here now?

Take care,
S