Just a story

[MilkRed]

Kathy,
I've read your post and I must contemplate, especially question 2.
P

[katica]

Hi Pal,

How is it going?

Kathy

[MilkRed]

The questions you are asking are beyond the scope of this inquiry.

Yeah... I really understood that... They were bothering on the day of writing, so it couldn't resist being written ;)

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
No there's not and there wasn't ever. It's all just something I remember.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

The separate self always starts now, when the thought of "I" is formed. This thought, when thought, shows images of a person together with a narrative of what the person in that image experienced. The illusion is created when the images and the narrative is believed to be me which is then also mixed up with the sense of being as "me existing". It becomes an illusory own entity which all experience is ascribed to. This thought of "I" and "I am" ("I exist") has been thought so many times that it is mistaken for reality - i.e. delusion.


3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

It mostly feels a little bit surpising everytime I look at it. It's so evident. Still, I'm most of the time still captured in the dreamworld. However when pain gets strong and "unbearable" I'm reminded to look again and I see only story of past, story of future, story of other people.

[katica]

Hi Pal,

From the past conversation: What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?

And more questions....

- What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

- Can you talk about decision, intention, free will, choice and control? What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

- Anything to add?

xoxo

Kathy

[MilkRed]

From the past conversation: What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?

From previous inquiry (No Body intensive with BK) I had touched the same realization, but not seen it, or rather not seen the absence of the self. The difference now is that
- I know how to look
- I trust that my direct experience is all that matters and not what an expert, spiritual master etc says.

- What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

There were a few things that together made it:
- when you said "try to stick with actual experience without metaphors", then I looked without trying to understand
- someplace I read: "there are thoughts and the contents of thoughts" and I realized those were different things
- someplace I read: "is there a manager? is there a controller?" and I looked and I couldn't find any

- Can you talk about decision, intention, free will, choice and control? What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

- decisions comes in two kinds, unaware decisions like how the body moves its parts for example, these might not even technically be decisions, but it is noted that the arm moved to the keyboard to type this for example. And aware decisions where the thought of the decision actually is seen, but the thought in turn just came.
- nothing makes things happen, things just happen, "life" happens. Wakeup in the morning happens, thoughts appearing, thoughts believed happens, getting out of bed comes to mind as a thought appearing, body follows or body just gets out of bed.
- it works by things happening, sometimes noticed when they happen, and not if I'm lost in my mind.
- ultimately no responsibility either, this awareness seems to be responsible, responsibility happens as well

- Anything to add?

The above is not seen all the time. Still asleep to really long periods of the day, lost in mind.

xoxo

Kathy

[katica]

Dear Pal,

Thank you for your answers and forgive me for being away.

Your answers all resonate with me. Yet, Pal do you still feel there is an attachment to suffering?

With love,
Kathy

[MilkRed]

Hi Kathy
Thanks. I wouldn't say there's an attachment to suffering as such, but for sure there's attachment to beliefs that my life situation should be different, and that it seems I have an unsolvable problem in my life. Also there' are the thoughts about purpose and meaning.
When I believe those suffering is created and you could of course say I'm attached to it because I want to solve the problem - the problem that exists entirely in my mind - and which seems unsolvable by the mind. When I look at what's here, in direct experience, there's no problem.

Pål

[katica]

Pal,

How can you believe something that is known to not be real? Do you SEE thoughts are NOT real? They are JUST thoughts. They mean absolutely nothing!!! Not a thing! The good thoughts mean nothing. The bad thoughts mean nothing. Katie's work is all about that, revealing each though in the end means no more than the opposite thought.

He is a jerk - not real. He is a great guy- not real.
The sky is blue - just another thought - not real
The story of Pal - NOT REAL

Thoughts are meaningless Pal. The are junk. Nothing more. Why would you believe in them?

[MilkRed]

How can you believe something that is known to not be real?

I'm tricked by this illusion over and over again.

Do you SEE thoughts are NOT real?

Yes when I consciously look. It seems I forget

Thoughts are meaningless Pal. The are junk. Nothing more. Why would you believe in them?

I don't know. It seems it happens.
Are they really meaningless?

[katica]

Yes when I consciously look. It seems I forget

So Pal, why don't you look consciously more?

I don't know. It seems it happens.
Are they really meaningless?

Please tell me? What is a thought? Where does it come from?

xoxo
Kathy

[MilkRed]

So Pal, why don't you look consciously more?

Well If I'm not conscious how could I consciously look? I go into unconsciousness and don't see that I'm thinking and believing my thoughts. Then I wake up, usually because I experience pain.

What is a thought? Where does it come from?

The thought is a label on experience, an internal image or a a series of thoughts as a narrative or logical reasoning. They come from nowhere, they just show up. If I'm conscious I see them as thoughts appearing. If I'm not I tend to believe them.

[katica]

Well If I'm not conscious how could I consciously look? I go into unconsciousness and don't see that I'm thinking and believing my thoughts. Then I wake up, usually because I experience pain.

Pal, it is my experience that once has a choice to look. We can choose where we put our focus. The painful thoughts passing by? Images about the past or future? Or right Now. I am not saying it's easy. I fall back into story too. Yet it wasn't long ago a friend asked me what I really want. To be in story or stop the pain and suffering. It was very helpful for me.

Pal what do YOU really want???? Do you want to hold on to pain and suffering or choose freedom. It's in front of you, both options. It's up to you to choose.

[MilkRed]

Well Kathy I've chosen freedom over and over again but so far I've been caught in the story over and over again too. I would express that I see the illusion when I consciously look, but I'm unconscious a lot so I don't see it all the time. Or maybe I'm not quite there, if the conditions are such that if you've really seen it.

For example, I was playing golf two days ago and one the golf course everything was "as usual". I thought "I" was playing, "I" was making bad shots/good shots, talking to my playing partners. Etc. I had no realization of that golf "is playing. Only until in the evening when I was feeling lonely I realized I had not been seeing brought the illusion during the entire day. We also played the next day and then I could see it, since I had been reminded through the pain that something is not quite right.

So, this is what happens basically- there's not been that kind of shift yet, so that I see that there's no self all the time.

And would I choose freedom or suffering? Well it seems suffering is chosen so far. Who is it that chooses anyway? What can I do about it?

[katica]

Hi Pal,

I've been caught in the story over and over again

Where did the idea come from, that this wouldn't happen when you have seen through the delusion of a separate independent self ?

would express that I see the illusion when I consciously look,

Does this mean that it's not an illusion when you don't look ?

Or maybe I'm not quite there,

..or maybe you are, and getting lost in story, then recognizing that it happened is part of the de-conditioning that happens after waking up happens.

We also played the next day and then I could see it, since I had been reminded through the pain that something is not quite right.

Ah, so some of the old conditioning had dropped out.

so that I see that there's no self all the time.

..again, where did the idea come from that you would never respond in that old habitual way.
..and further, isn't it useful to respond that way often. Would you find it useful to tie your shoelaces unconsciously, or place your feet when walking, or do you think that everything should be with awareness.
What other expectations can you find about being awake ? Please list them.

xox
Kathy

[MilkRed]

Hello Kathy,
I'm sorry (no I'm not actually ;-) for not being able to respond so quickly.

I've been caught in the story over and over again

Where did the idea come from, that this wouldn't happen when you have seen through the delusion of a separate independent self ?

I'm not saying that (or at least not intending to say that)! I'm saying that this is what seems to happen: I get caught by the story.

would express that I see the illusion when I consciously look,

Does this mean that it's not an illusion when you don't look ?

When I get caught in the story, isn't that the same thing as being "tricked" into the illusion again (thus it becomes a delusion)? The pattern that seems to happen is that I get trapped in the story of me at times. Then I experience some sort of pain and that usually wakes me up and I look again - and I see that my so called "life" is a story.

Or maybe I'm not quite there,

..or maybe you are, and getting lost in story, then recognizing that it happened is part of the de-conditioning that happens after waking up happens.

Exactly!

..again, where did the idea come from that you would never respond in that old habitual way.
..and further, isn't it useful to respond that way often. Would you find it useful to tie your shoelaces unconsciously, or place your feet when walking, or do you think that everything should be with awareness.
What other expectations can you find about being awake ? Please list them.

Yes it's a dream that I still have, to wake up "completely" with a "big bang" like I believe Tolle and Katie did and be in total presence all the time. A dream to never suffer anymore. But I see that it can happen the other way, a gradual wakeup.

And I can see it's actually useful to be able to walk without noticing it.

Other expectations... I think I read/heard here in this forum (Elena or Ilona writing/saying it) that once you have seen it, it can never be unseen - so the shift is permanent. I thought permanent meant also constant, but those are two different things. I think my seeing of the no self is permanent, but not constant as I get tricked back into the "old way" again. So that is an expectation, now it seems to be falling away too.

Pål