Curious to learn more

[Helene]

Hello fran
Tried this ecersise early but without being able to have a look at the link .
Wanted to give it ago prior to watching the blog
Hope that read interpretation is what you expected

Evening didn't flow as expected :(

14 year old son very stroppy , we had a chat about his behaviour in the kitchen which was short lived ... he became very defensive because I shared that I would be happy to look at talking to him when he calmed etc
Got up front the kitchen table and emptied the washing machine
Popped out into the tumble dryer , then went back to the kitchen to put the kettle on .
Looking forward to watching holby city with my daughter as she had just settled her little son to bed .
Daughter joined me in the kitchen and I made a drink for both of us whilst chatting about sons strop !
Son joined us and wanted to talk about his attitude , sat back at the table to talk to him for about an hour .
Daughter left us in peace and went to the living room to watch the TV ,
Eventually resolved the issues with my son ...happy teen again (for now anyway )
Walked to the dryer to retrieve the washing , took basket to the kitchen to fold and sort
Hall fire alarm started to go off , walked to the hall ,went to the play room to get a chair as hushing the alarm was not successful
Continued attempts with the alarm and help from my son to reset was not proving to solve the issue ... eventually decided to disconect as now very late and revisit in the morning .talked to son about going clothes shopping which led to a debate about Easter eggs .
Son decided to go to bed after showing me his bonsai tree kit which he had brought down ...took ages to read the instructions as he wants to soak the seeds tomorrow .
Back to the kitchen to wash up a few cups and glasses , made a cup of coffee then went and sat in the living room for the first time today enjoyed the peace fir a few minutes before realising that I'd missed my programme that was intended to view .



Direct experiences

Observing my sons discontent changed the atmosphere for all in the home
Noticing the sounds , his facial expressions and body language
Conscious of listening to his story , just listening , responding when appropriate to do so without fuelling his anger
Waiting for the storm to calm
Sensing his mood , frustration
The need to change my position frequently sat on the chair
Time passed and all tasks just happened automatically ... take the washing out
But each individual task had its own unique sensory sensations
Washing : the texture and weight of each item as it was taken out if the machine , the smell of fabric conditioner which was so very pleasant . The darkness in the garden , the brightness of the moon above the outhouse , the noise of the dryer once switched on , the difference in temperature , felt chilly
Back I the kitchen the temperature warmer , lighter , the faint sound of the TV next door and the ticking of the clock
Making a drink : moving automatically across the room , filling the kettle , turning it on again automatically
The sound of the running water , the kettle boiling , the steam rising get from the spout prior to boiling
Noticing different sounds from outside as well as within the room , some clearer than others
Feeling tired, yawning ,
Lifting the hot cup , aware of the temperature when holding it in my hand the steam rising from the cup up into the air , the coffee swirling as it was placed on the table
Reading instructions : sense of confusion continually searching for an easier way of understanding the process , searching for visual cues from the box . Studying the small sealed packages with eyes , noticing the difference in sizes of the seed packs , colours , textures of objects within the box . Unfamiliarity resulted in putting everything back in the box to revisit another day
Continually moving , negotiating assessing without thought
Alarm : instant sound which was continuous , the need to repond imediatley without hesitation
Moved imediatley off the chair and walked into the hall , looked up to the ceiling , walked to the okay room to get a chair
The noise unpleasant and heard by others continued to resolve many times until the only solution in that moment was to remove the replaced battery ...again just 'doing '
Summary
The evening just flowed , the direct experiences differed from moment to moment from place to place .
Moments when alone without interruption , distractions and requests from others were more sensory pleasurable and memorable rather than other moments which appeared to be an overload of multiple experiences happening all at once .
The bonsai tree kit offered a very different experience as it was new , unfamiliar and required attention and focus . This brought on uncomfortable sensations .... irritation , frustration which led to the task not being followed through .

Night
Helene

[Bambaji]

Good morning! - Wow, a busy evening!

Let's take a look at some of what you wrote:

Direct experiences

Washing : the texture and weight of each item as it was taken out if the machine , the smell of fabric conditioner which was so very pleasant . The darkness in the garden , the brightness of the moon above the outhouse , the noise of the dryer once switched on , the difference in temperature , felt chilly

Yes, lovely description.

Lifting the hot cup , aware of the temperature when holding it in my hand the steam rising from the cup up into the air , the coffee swirling as it was placed on the table
Reading instructions : sense of confusion continually searching for an easier way of understanding the process , searching for visual cues from the box . Studying the small sealed packages with eyes , noticing the difference in sizes of the seed packs , colours , textures of objects within the box . Unfamiliarity resulted in putting everything back in the box to revisit another day

Do you feel a self in any of this. The confusion and lack of understanding - were they thoughts attaching to an emotion or a feeling?


I am going to ask you to repeat this exercise, I am not sure that I explained very well what I was pointing to! I have copied and pasted the instructions from Ilona's website as they are very clear:

First write what you are experiencing right now using works I and me. Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, no drama, just plain description of here now.

Like this: I am laying in bed. I am hearing rain. I am typing these words.

Do it for 10 minutes. Watch the body, are there any sensations of tightening or relaxing?

Then, for the next 10 minutes, write without the words I or me. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs: waiting for the next thought, typing, breathing, blinking, hearing rain.

Again watch what is happening in the body.

Now compare the two ways to label experience - is on truer than the other? If so, which one? What is here without labels? Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

Thanks Helene, have a good day :)

Love

Fran x

[Helene]

Evening Fran
Ihave made time to read illona's articles .
Think I'm getting it now would like a little extra time to rewrite the excercise that was completed yesterday if that's ok .
The realisation of 'I ' being a label just like any other thing .
How the word 'i' or 'me ' personsalises stories , perception of events or feelings .
Conditioned from such an early age without questioning if it's truly real .
Detaching from the labels also switches the thoughts that continually flow , that's what has been noticed more today concentrating far more on the experiences rather than thoughts attached .
Big thank you
A little weary this evening , so will check back in the morning with a more detailed account of the ecersise .
Best wishes
Helene x

[Bambaji]

Hello Helene

The realisation of 'I ' being a label just like any other thing.
How the word 'i' or 'me ' personsalises stories , perception of events or feelings .
Conditioned from such an early age without questioning if it's truly real .
Detaching from the labels also switches the thoughts that continually flow , that's what has been noticed more today concentrating far more on the experiences rather than thoughts attached

Yes, really good to see this, thank you for taking the time to read the article :)

Take as much time as you need, let it sink in and report back when you feel ready.

Love

Fran x

[Helene]

Evening fran
Repeated excercise
I am sitting on the sofa ,
I am listening to the TV which is on in the background
I'm typing away
I am breathing
I feel comfortable , relaxed
I am aware of my muscles softening as they sink into the sofa
I am looking at the I pad screen
I am moving my foot as it feels stiff
I am talking to my son about his day , when he entered the room
I can hear a car driving past
I'm thinking of getting up to make a drink
I'm thinking that I should really do the ironing
I am noticing it's getting darker
I feel tired , noticing that my body feels heavy
I'm yawning
My eyes are watering


Sitting on the sofa
Breathing , slowly
Listening to the television which is on in the background
Seeing the words appear as the letters are typed
Watching the TV from now and then , just glancing
Moving , finger to tap and type , the head as it changes position from time to time
Blinking , consciously and unconsciously
Waiting for thoughts to flow , what will the weather be like tomorrow ? Need to iron theses few bits that are in the basket
Typing words to reply to a message
Body becoming heavier , eyes feel tired and heavy
Talking
Smiling

now compare the two , is one truer than the other ?

No
Both descriptions desribe the direct experience , but the first one personalises it I suppose .
Communicating that it's Helene 'doing ' rather than someone else .
Labels don't change the experience at all , just describe who us doing what .
Best wishes
Helene x

[Bambaji]

Good evening Helene

Thanks for your post, I really appreciate your commitment to this conversation, thank you.

Both descriptions describe the direct experience, but the first one personalises it I suppose .
Communicating that it's Helene 'doing ' rather than someone else .
Labels don't change the experience at all, just describe who is doing what

Is it clear to you that 'I' is a labelled thought, just like any other thought?
Thought presents us with an 'I' to take ownership and, as you say, to personalise the direct experience. To tell a story.

Not that everything is a story of course, though sometimes we can be fooled until/unless we look a little closer.
For example: sound labelled "birdsong" isn't a story, but story can say that a blue bird down the street made that sound.
Flavour labelled "sweet" isn't a story, but story can be, "I love chocolate ice cream."
Image isn't a story, but thought could say, "Wow! What a spectacular sunset!"
Do you see the difference?
Would you like to explore this further?

With love

Fran x

[Helene]

Hello fran

is it clear to you that 'I' is a labelled thought , just like any other thought ?

Yes it is clear now , and have a greater awareness of how easy it is to be fooled .
It has been such s helpful journey , being prompted to look deeper and focus on what is really happening at any given time .


It would be really helpful to explore this further .
Really appreciate your time and patience .
Helene x

[Bambaji]

Hiya :)

It has been such s helpful journey , being prompted to look deeper and focus on what is really happening at any given time

Yes, and this looking goes on and goes deeper, we have so many layers of conditioning and habit to get past, so it's a really helpful practice to keep on looking: "is this a thought?" "what is the direct experience?"

What is your understanding of memory?
And leading on from memory, what is past and future?

Love

Fran x

[Helene]

Hi fran
There is certainly years and years of conditioning and habit that that needs tackling .

its really helpful practice to keep on looking .'is this a thought ?'

My direct experience is that this is a thought .
To look is a verb which it's expressed to give full attention
Can look but at times not see , but can't see without looking .

what is your understanding of memory ?

The ability to remember , encode , strode and recall info .
Something that happens from birth , picked up by one of the senses , absorbing information from the world around like a neatly packed filing cabinet .

The information is recalled without thinking or concentration , as and when it's required .
Past experiences impact upon current behaviours .

leading on from memory , what is past and future ?

In simplistic terms , past is anything that has happened prior to the here and now .
Future .. anything that is yet to happen after the present

Best wishes
Helene

[Bambaji]

Good afternoon Helene

Thank you for your post. You said of memory:

The ability to remember, encode, strode and recall info. Something that happens from birth, picked up by one of the senses, absorbing information from the world around like a neatly packed filing cabinet

Fabulous! Let's pick that apart a little shall we?! When we first talked about mind you wrote:

My thinking is that the mind is like a complex computer, that continually processes to enhance understanding, stores information, as well as using some form of illusory function. It has the ability to be influenced by the environment and stored information

When you really looked for mind, you couldn't find anything in your direct experience, so I will ask you to look for memory in a similar way, especially as your description of your understanding of memory sounds very similar to your previous understanding of mind.
Where is memory stored?
Is there a container somewhere full of memories?
Have you experienced this in any way?
What is your direct experience of memory?
Can you see/touch/smell/taste a memory?

past is anything that has happened prior to the here and now. Future .. anything that is yet to happen after the present

But is there an experience that the ’now’ is moving along the line of time?
Any experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next?
A direct experience of one event following another?
How fast is the ‘present moment’ actually moving?
Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began?
How long does the ‘now’ last?
Where does the ‘now’ start, and where does it end?
When does the ‘now’ exactly become the 'past'?
So is there actual experience of ‘time’ or thoughts about ‘time’?

Have a look at the second hand on a clock. It seems to be changing. But can you find 10 seconds ago in your direct experience? 5 seconds? 1 second? Keep noticing that change is always only a story about some experience "prior to this". But only *this* can be found. How could there have been another experience at all? Where has it gone to?

There is a fair bit here to look at, but not too much I hope? And I hope you are having fun with these exercises, the clock exercise always has me laughing at the unquestioned beliefs I held on to for so many years!

With love

Fran x

[Helene]

Hello fran

where is memory stored ?

I have absolute eyes no idea if looking deeper at this .
My idea if memory is based on .. science , education and personal experiences .
Have never questioned or challenged as it's something shared by everyone both human and animal form .
It can only be Interpreted similar to a computer or filing cabinet as it makes it easier to understand the complexity of something that can not be seen , but is shared by all .

is there a container somewhere full of memories ?

No there us not a container at all .
It's the simplistic way to describe the unknown .

have you experienced this in that way

No , but possibly never challenged what was happening .
Never looked deep enough to understand the 'why's '
They just happen naturally , dependent on your life path and exposure to different enviroments etc .
Some occur automayically without thinking , where as others lie hidden without any conscious awareness .

what is your direct experience of memory ?

Unreliable., Bias at times .
Unpredictable .
Something that can be trained i.e. Learning to play the piano for example .
Once you have mastered all the keys , are able to read music and be one competent ...playing the piano be ones a natural skill , without the use of memory or thought .

can you see/smell/touch or taste memory ?

No
Different sensory experiences can be the trigger that takes you back to an experience in the past ...a thought a perception , a reaction to an event or situation .

is there an experience that the 'now' is moving along the line of time ?

This is where I'm come,completely out if my depth :(
It appears too but does it ?? Or is this just again a label that has been attached .
Baffled ...
No idea
Unable to find the exact point where a moment begins at all .
Perception of how long a moment last for ,is based on the conditioning of time .
having the ability to know if an experience was minutes in duration or hours .
Really struggling to answer the questions regarding wether the experience of time is a thought or not :(
Maybe I'm missing something .
Hellpppppp

Clock excercise
Absolutely baffled , and have no idea .
Has it got something to do with conditioning ?
Perception and expectation ?
The direct experience was just noticing , concentrating on the hand ticking , the hand moving nothing else ..no thoughts just comp,eye concentration .
The only story that occurred was that ..the clock had been observed with full attention for a minute ..could elaborate and give more detail of the environment , position , temperature , what room etc
But each second follows the previous one automatically with rythem ..no change what so ever .
This has really brought some confusion , haven't got the answers
Feeling bemused that I'm struggling to get it .
Hope this is a normal reaction
Thank you for spending the time to break down everything into bite sized chunks , this certainly helps with a more meaningful understanding.
Gratefully appreciated
Helene x

[Bambaji]

Hi Helene

Thank you for spending the time to break down everything into bite sized chunks, this certainly helps with a more meaningful understanding

You are very welcome, let's take this looking gently.

My idea of memory is based on .. science , education and personal experiences

Is this a reliable idea? There can be as many different versions (memories) of an event as there were people who witnessed it!!

We have been looking and exploring using direct experience. This work is not based on any scientific information that you have, nor educational, nor personal (unless it is DE). See if you can drop what you think you know and have learned about memory and stay with your Direct Experience.

No there is not a container at all.

Indeed. There is no memory container to be found in Direct Experience. So when you sit and look, where do you find memories?

Sit quietly and close your eyes. As before, notice the thoughts that come and go. Notice that there are thoughts that comment and judge, and thoughts that tell a story of what is going on now. There are also thoughts that tell a story about a 'future' and ones that tell stories about a 'past'. Just sit with all these and watch as they move on past.

Can you see that the thoughts that are concerned with a 'past' - the ones we call a memory - are still just thoughts?
Is it possible that 'memories' are thoughts with a different name?
There may be some resistance to this, that's fine if it's what comes up.

Let's stick with memory for the moment and move on to time ...er....later!! Lol :)

With love

Fran x

[Helene]

Evening Fran

Thank you for supporting me to work through this .
It's correct , theories, learnt behaviours and scientific stuff distorts understanding at times .
To strip everything back to basics and just look and show curiosity is far more reliable than information that has been absorbed over the years ...without every really questioning how the beliefs became 'true'.


Memory

is this reliable ?

No not at all as it is a thought tagged to a last experience .
How an experience is perceived is very individual , and each person will have a very different account .

when you sit and look , where do you find memories ?

They can't be found , they seem to pop up automatically or triggered by something .
A thought could allow an image to be brought to the forefront .
They are possible just thoughts .

is it possible that 'memories' are thoughts with a different name ?

Yes , think I was over complicating things :(
A light bulb moment at last .
The only thing that is certain is the here and now This moment, as we experience it .

sit quietly and close your eyes ........

Can now see that thoughts referred to as memories , are just thoughts .
Thoughts just come and go , telling a story like listening to the radio on low volume ..continually without any prompts
Floating past, Fading , soon to be replaced by another thought .
At times with a visual image , but not always matching the thought .
Then periods of just nothing ... silence ...followed by another image , thought .

Helene x

[Bambaji]

Oh Helene, I am so happy for you, that is a great report, very good looking!! :)

Rest in that and we will continue tomorrow

Much love

x

[Helene]

Thank you fran
Look forward to checking in tomorrow
Helene x