Seeking the end of Seeking

[Govinda]

The label did not change, but it points to an experience which is constantly changing too.

Actually the label Sebastian or "me" is not stable too. It sometimes appears in thoughts or sounds, but it is not constant and it has no reality in itself.

---

However, answering your questions made it quite clear again that there is no real "I" except in thoughts. It felt free and peaceful. A few moments later I chat with a friend and tension happens in the body and the sense of "I" feels very real again, although no "I" can be located in the tension or body.

[Hopefulness]

Hi again,

O.K. Good work. Good looking at reality.
Work has me today. We will look at this a little more closely tomorrow, then move on.

[Hopefulness]

Hi again,

Very good. Now let's take it one step further with a very simple visualization exercise to widen the gap between the two.

Imagine a large white board in front of you. Visualize it. This is the subject Sebastian, white as the combination of all the colors of raw sensation.

Now begin taking all of the components of object Sebastian you described earlier in this dialog, write them on yellow sticky notes, and stick them to the white board.

"mommy, daddy, Sebastian, doggy, kitty...............................Yellow stickys on the board
"mommy's good boy, daddy's little man................................Yellow stickys on the board
"Sebastian the good boy, Sebastian the bad boy......................Yellow stickys on the board
"search for true nature of what I am..."...............................Yellow sticky on the board
"painful to experience thoughts"........................................Yellow sticky on the board
"painful to experience feelings"......................................... Yellow sticky on the board
"I am suffering".............................................................Yellow sticky on the board
"I want freedom from pain"...............................................Yellow sticky on the board
"Realization wants to happen here......................................Yellow sticky on the board
"Leave the prison of the body/mind.....................................Yellow sticky on the board
"Stuck in the illusion........................................................Yellow sticky on the board
"multiple sclerosis, hypnosis, NLP, Psychology, EFT
meditation, psychotherapy, Advaita, Satsangs, spiritual
teachers, retreats, dissolving ego, loneliness, lack,
painful life,...................................................................Yellow stickys on the board
All other experiences of object Sebastian...............................Yellow stickys on the board

Now step back and visualize the whole scene.
Two questions:
1. What has been obscured?
2. Where is all the suffering contained?
Look closely.
Take your time.

[Govinda]

Now step back and visualize the whole scene.
Two questions:
1. What has been obscured?
2. Where is all the suffering contained?
Look closely.
Take your time.

Hi there, thanks for your writing. I try to answer as honest as I can.

1. The white board which means the raw experience and sensations in this metaphor seems to be obscured by yellow sticky notes or labels of the mind. Feeling, seeing, hearing, touching, smelling or life is barely noticeable with all the labels.

2. I guess the suffering is contained in thoughts that obscure direct experience. Thoughts that also claim that there is something wrong with experience or "me", that life (or "I") should be different, that life is painful. there is no suffering in direct experience maybe.

[Hopefulness]

Hi again,

Good. We both have common definitions now. You have certainly seen the apparent duality in the subject/object, object/object duality in my posts, as well as posts even by other guides. These dichotomies do not exist in actual experience. They are simply useful fictions inherent in the use of language here.

I will post an exercise later for you to explore raw experience a little more. Then we will move on to the nature of thought, or its absence.

[Hopefulness]

Hi again,


You are going to put a rubber band on your wrist, and throughout the day when you notice it, stop for a moment, and notice raw experience and the labeling of it.

As an example, let's say you stop and notice a tree.
Notice raw experience of colors and shapes.
Notice just the presentation of it.
Then notice how the individual labels, green, brown, and tan attach to parts.
Then notice the shape of it.
Then notice how the label "tree" encapsulates all of those together.
Then notice the perceiving object, "that which knows green, brown, and tan."
Then notice the perceiving object, "that which knows the shape of it."
Then notice the perceiving object, "that which knows all parts together are "tree."

Notice how the creation of each object seems to create that which "knows" of it and labels it.

Try the exercise with a sound, then a smell, maybe then a taste and then a feeling.

Look closely,
Take your time.

[Govinda]

I am looking forward to it.

[Govinda]

Hi again,


You are going to put a rubber band on your wrist, and throughout the day when you notice it, stop for a moment, and notice raw experience and the labeling of it.

As an example, let's say you stop and notice a tree.
Notice raw experience of colors and shapes.
Notice just the presentation of it.
Then notice how the individual labels, green, brown, and tan attach to parts.
Then notice the shape of it.
Then notice how the label "tree" encapsulates all of those together.
Then notice the perceiving object, "that which knows green, brown, and tan."
Then notice the perceiving object, "that which knows the shape of it."
Then notice the perceiving object, "that which knows all parts together are "tree."

Notice how the creation of each object seems to create that which "knows" of it and labels it.

Try the exercise with a sound, then a smell, maybe then a taste and then a feeling.

Look closely,
Take your time.

I can not find "the perceiving object". there is only experience with thoughts containing an "I" doing something.

[Hopefulness]

Hi again,

I can not find "the perceiving object". there is only experience with thoughts containing an "I" doing something.

Good.

1. Describe "thoughts containing an I" more fully.
2. What is it that knows "thoughts"?

[Govinda]

1. Describe "thoughts containing an I" more fully.
2. What is it that knows "thoughts"?

1. There are thoughts that claim that there is an "I" that is doing something, like walking, sleeping, thinking, seeing, experiencing, etc. , but this "I" does point to nothing, no separate self. It says "I am writing", but writing is just happening. "I am thinking" while thinking just happens. The word or thought "I" suggests that there is a separate entity in control, managing mind and body. In reality no one can be found who is in control, no separate entity can be located.
But to be honest there is no clear seeing of no self being in control right now. It`s more intellectual knowledge, which causes frustration here.

2. I cannot locate an object that knows "thoughts". It`s just knowing and thinking.

[Hopefulness]

Hi again,


Re-read your last post please.

So there was the raw seeing of the post.
There are "thoughts" (objects) and there is "knowing" (that which knows of the thoughts).
It hid in its simplicity.

Now we'll look and see if there are actually two objects, knower and known, or just one, which seems to have two aspects.
We'll call it knowing/known.

Look at an object, any object in the room. Notice the fiction that there is the object and there is that which knows of the object.
So as an example, there would be the fictional object Sebastian (that which knows of the object) and the object itself.

Now looking at only that object, try to find the dividing line between Sebastian and the object. Put another way, where does Sebastian end and the object begin.

[Govinda]

So there was the raw seeing of the post.
There are "thoughts" (objects) and there is "knowing" (that which knows of the thoughts).
It hid in its simplicity.

Hi there, Your writing caused some confusion here and seeing happened that there is no seeing or only seeing. Then fear kicked in and a kind of inner falling happened without resistance. Unfortunately this was interrupted quickly by outer circumstances and seeing has been replaced by frustration again.

But answering your comment: There is no knowing or only knowing. There is no knowing of thoughts, there is only knowing or only experiencing, depending on how you want to describe it.
Right now its more intellectual knowledge.

As said above here is frustration - a mix of anger and sadness - again and the thought "I have lost it again. I have to continue suffering." There is also some kind of guilt saying "I should have prepared better for reading your comment". Who is feeling or thinking this? no answer.

[Govinda]

There is also a huge feeling of helplessness and desperation. it feels like this is me or maybe it`s just a thought but it`s like feelings and thoughts are enwoven somehow. I am not clear any more, quite foggy here. Feeling also a strong longing for clear seeing as it happened before, whereas the second part is more a thought. need to settle again maybe...

[Hopefulness]

Hi again,

These thoughts that torture you, this internal voice that criticizes you.
!. Does it seem to have its own identity?

[Govinda]

Hi there,
before I answer your question I`d like to share what happend meanwhile shortly. After I asked the frustration if it has a message for me, the answer came "I want to live fully". This is quite illusionary of course but it caused some relaxation. After Watching some videos of Ilona and reading in the archive section there happened seeing again and a huge energy release in the body. Colors were bright and life was full on so to speak. This didn`t last for long until it ended again, tensions came back, and seeing became foggy again.

I am striving for these moments of clear seeing and aliveness like an addict. It`s kind of a craving as I know it from other addictions, Satsangs, and so on. Now thoughts say "this moment is not good enough. I need to see truth again." combined with unpleasant feelings of tension. I want to ask you, when does the seeking end? What is it that makes the difference between a seeker and a "no-seeker-anymore"? I guess that tensions and "seeing" will always come and go, won`t they? Maybe even seeking can still arise beyond the "gate".

Hope, I am not writing too much or inappropriate content. If so, tell me please.

These thoughts that torture you, this internal voice that criticizes you.
!. Does it seem to have its own identity?

Yes, I`d say that it seems that the voice has it`s own identity. It seems that the thoughts are real. There are also thoughts that say, that thoughts are not real.
Confusion happened again.
Silence remains.
For now.