Diving head in!

[retro305]

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

I was meditating and out of the sudden the usual "staying in the space between each thought to just be" was transformed into a total and absolute mesh with everything. I felt "no separation" I have never felt that before. I asked why is this? I heard: "There is no you".

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.

hmmmm....Decision is a logical conclusion. Intention is the blood that moves each action..its SO underrated. Free will is the reason why our race is in the mess that we are in today :) and Choice is the direction where a decision will take us.

b) What makes things happen? How does it work?

Thought makes things happen. Experience ALWAYS follows thought. This is inevitable. The "power" behind each though is Mind and I am not referring to the brain but the Force that makes the cut heal on its own as I shared earlier. We are able to notice all this because we have consciousness and we are aware.

c) What are you responsible for?

Be true to myself and always follow our innate infallible wisdom.

d) Give examples from experience.

Its a knowing. Its a knowing that truly surpasses any human understanding. I have made decisions that look great on paper and it my heart of hearts I know that I am going against what my heart signaled me to do and voila! its just a matter of time for me to collect the "receipt" that I screwed up. In the same way I have moved in a direction that for everyone around me could be described as illogical but the call was a clear message from my heart and not before long I can see why I felt that way when things fall into perfect place.

6) Anything to add?

Not for now....but my heart tells me that there is more. It will come to the surface tomorrow. :-)

[JonathanR]

Hi Franklin,

Thanks for your answers.

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.


hmmmm....Decision is a logical conclusion. Intention is the blood that moves each action..its SO underrated. Free will is the reason why our race is in the mess that we are in today :) and Choice is the direction where a decision will take us.

I just realised that I did not ask you any questions about 'Choice' and 'Decisions' before presenting this one to you. I should have done that and I hope you will not mind if we do now take a look at this area? I like your answers which are great in themselves but I think you will appreciate this extra bit of investigation too, in any case...

Place both hands flat on a table, palms down. In a minute one of these hands...but not the other...will be raised into the air. Ordinarily it is supposed that 'I choose' (between alternatives), as if a 'chooser' chooses. But is that what happens? Wait and watch for the choice-point where one hand is raised. (BTW for this to work one hand MUST be raised). Look for the choice-point where a chooser chooses. Is that found?

To explore 'Decisions', which is related , notice the playing out of some routine activity such as driving to work or going to make a cup of coffee. In either case look for 'decisions' within the series of actions and movements involved. Is there a 'decider' that decides and controls each detail of driving to work or does it play out rather differently? How does it seem to play out?

let me know how you get on with these exercises?

Jon

[retro305]

Oh WOW Jon........this is great stuff.

I am going to let them sink in and I will write back as early as tomorrow morning and as late as Sunday evening.

"The right answers are in the right questions"......I have been thinking a lot about this motto since you started guiding me.

THANK YOU.

[JonathanR]

Hi Franklin,

It's a great pleasure to work with you. :-)

Jon

[retro305]

Dear Jon,

Please accept my apologies for not writing back to you yesterday.

Look for the choice-point where a chooser chooses. Is that found?

The answer is no. I have done this several times and not even on the first time I said to myself: "Now you will raise your right hand" "Now you will raise your left hand". One hand just went up without a chooser choosing. I couldnt find who is "running the show".

Is there a 'decider' that decides and controls each detail of driving to work or does it play out rather differently? How does it seem to play out?

The answer is again no. How many times I have made me a cup of coffee and I realize that I have done so the moment that I have started sipping?? Its as if I am in a trance. You know what has been happening more and more in the last week as I have realized that there is no I? when I do that I say to myself: "You gotta be kidding me". Its as if I am a machine, ran by a program. But who is the programmer? who breathes me? who makes me create a thought?

Nowadays to me its just my Awareness being aware of all this. Sometimes when I am just aware I literally see this self from the outside as if I am having an out of body experience. This should freak me out but it does not. It feels SO real.

[JonathanR]

Hi Franklin,

Thank you so much for your post. Wonderful to read. I will answer tomorrow as it is now late where I am.

Thanks,

Jon

[retro305]

Great.

I wish you a night of rest.

Are you in the UK? (you don't need to answer if the question is not prudent)

:-)

[JonathanR]

Hi Franklin,

Yes. I'm in UK.

The answer is no. I have done this several times and not even on the first time I said to myself: "Now you will raise your right hand" "Now you will raise your left hand". One hand just went up without a chooser choosing. I couldnt find who is "running the show".

That's great.

The answer is again no. How many times I have made me a cup of coffee and I realize that I have done so the moment that I have started sipping?? Its as if I am in a trance.

What, you mean as if it all happens automatically?

Nowadays to me its just my Awareness being aware of all this. Sometimes when I am just aware I literally see this self from the outside as if I am having an out of body experience. This should freak me out but it does not. It feels SO real.

Yes. I'm so glad that the perspective has shifted or is shifting. The newness of this can seem quite dramatic.

Just so I can be sure, when you say 'I am aware', is there a one that 'is aware'? Also, is there seeing of a real self from an outside? Could you explain a little more what you mean here, as if explaining to someone who had never heard of 'no self' before?

Thanks,

Jon

[retro305]

What, you mean as if it all happens automatically?

Literally. One does this things without paying attention. Its as IF one is in a trance. This is neat stuff to look at. You see that a lot nowadays with everyone going about their business while looking at a mobile phone. For me, from brushing my teeth, to taking a bath, to driving to the supermarket. I do these things and a lot of the times I realized I finished when I am doing the next thing. Its incredible! I remember when I first learned to drive stick shift. EVERY SINGLE AVAILABLE sense of attention and consciousness was used to do all that I was learning to do be able to drive the car. Why?? Because when doing these things that we have never done, the primarily source of attention is the conscious mind. Then when these things become second nature; they (no pun intended) become second nature and that is our subconscious mind mainly operating and running the "show".

Just so I can be sure, when you say 'I am aware', is there a one that 'is aware'?

Frankly, no. Not a 'one". Its just consciousnesses. Awareness aware of itself.

Also, is there seeing of a real self from an outside?

No. I would say to someone who has never heard of "no self" before: go to the bathroom and stare at yourself at the mirror. Stay there looking diligently at yourself.... Look into your eyes..... Stay doing this for a while.....Can you tell who is looking back? After staring at this person in front of you; do you notice that after a while it becomes impersonal? as if you have never seen this person before? but this person is you. Why do you think this is? Can you identify who is looking to you and who is looking through you?


(This actually happened to me when I was 6 years of age and doing this work triggered that memory that has been stored in there for over 40 years) :-)

[JonathanR]

Hi Franklin,

Literally. One does this things without paying attention. Its as IF one is in a trance. This is neat stuff to look at. You see that a lot nowadays with everyone going about their business while looking at a mobile phone. For me, from brushing my teeth, to taking a bath, to driving to the supermarket. I do these things and a lot of the times I realized I finished when I am doing the next thing. Its incredible! I remember when I first learned to drive stick shift. EVERY SINGLE AVAILABLE sense of attention and consciousness was used to do all that I was learning to do be able to drive the car. Why?? Because when doing these things that we have never done, the primarily source of attention is the conscious mind. Then when these things become second nature; they (no pun intended) become second nature and that is our subconscious mind mainly operating and running the "show".

Thanks for that detailed description, its great.

when doing these things that we have never done, the primarily source of attention is the conscious mind.

It can seem that an 'I' is 'doing something consciously' at these times, can't it? There is newness in learning for the first time, focus, attention, consciousness. But look even here, where it seems a 'self' is acting with 'intention'.

Is there a 'self' that could 'focus attention', 'be conscious', or is it that a new task needs doing and consciousness, attention appear in the situation ...and there is simply an assumption that 'I learned', 'I intended' and so on?

No. I would say to someone who has never heard of "no self" before: go to the bathroom and stare at yourself at the mirror. Stay there looking diligently at yourself.... Look into your eyes..... Stay doing this for a while.....Can you tell who is looking back? After staring at this person in front of you; do you notice that after a while it becomes impersonal? as if you have never seen this person before? but this person is you. Why do you think this is? Can you identify who is looking to you and who is looking through you?

That's a good one! Excellent

I want to invite other guides to take a look at our conversation soon and it would help if you would have another go at answering question 5, (the one you answered earlier, before we took a look at 'choices' and ;decisions'?) Would that be OK? Just answer it as you see things now:

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control as you understand it now. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Please give examples from experience if you can.


Thanks

Jon

[retro305]

It can seem that an 'I' is 'doing something consciously' at these times, can't it? There is newness in learning for the first time, focus, attention, consciousness. But look even here, where it seems a 'self' is acting with 'intention'.

Is there a 'self' that could 'focus attention', 'be conscious', or is it that a new task needs doing and consciousness, attention appear in the situation ...and there is simply an assumption that 'I learned', 'I intended' and so on?

Jon this last question confused me......the assumption that "I learned" is there even IF I am not paying attention. For example; I can dial a phone number today and don't ever think about it BUT 20 years from now you can ask me for the number and if I am able to access my subconscious; I will remember the phone number. Who remembered? Consciousness aware of itself remembered BUT that is not the "I".

I would like you to help me dig deeper in case I didn't understand the way that you elaborated on it.

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control as you understand it now. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Please give examples from experience if you can.

Decision: Any conclusion that one arrives logically or based on sheer intuition.
Intention: The rudder behind any decision
Free will: Our capacity to choose unlimited directions
Control: An illusion

Intention makes things happen. Our consciousnesses is aware of the purpose and we use our free will to follow the path that we have decided to follow at any given moment. I am responsible to know that I am pure awareness, pure consciousness. I am responsible to know that I am always creating and that it all starts with thought. Experience follows thought. If I am aware of my thoughts; I can be aware of what I am creating at any given time. We all have free will YET we believe that we are recipients of our circumstances. Awareness of this is understanding that we are really awake.

[JonathanR]

Hi Franklin,

Let's just deal with this first and consider your answers to question 5 later on:

Jon this last question confused me......the assumption that "I learned" is there even IF I am not paying attention. For example; I can dial a phone number today and don't ever think about it BUT 20 years from now you can ask me for the number and if I am able to access my subconscious; I will remember the phone number. Who remembered? Consciousness aware of itself remembered BUT that is not the "I".

Yes, the assumption 'I learned' is often there anyway. It was simply that you mentioned 'conscious' and 'unconscious'. And i was trying to say that even when there seems to be quite a lot of focus and consciousness about learning something for the first time...and the presence of attention to details may suggest that a 'somebody' is 'intending' or 'choosing' to learn...this is an illusion due to identification with a notion of 'me' as 'consciousness'.

if I am able to access my subconscious; I will remember the phone number

Which I is that?

If I really look at my experience, being ruthless to chuck out any ideas about life that are described as 'true' but cannot be verified either way through examining direct experience, I have to admit that I can't find anything at all in experience to be causing anything to happen, other than the happeningness of it. If I take your example, the phone number from 20 years ago may come up and of course somehow IT DOES, but how or why it does remains unknowable.

That is not to say that we cannot use language, labels, concepts, to take a stab at what we imagine may be going on. And these concepts, such as 'the unconscious' can be useful for various communication purposes.

Does this make sense to you?

Would you say that how and why things happen the way they do remains a mystery?

all the best,

Jon

[retro305]

Jon....I sense I am hitting a wall. Not reverting because there is no putting this genie back in the bottle but kinda confused.

First, let me address this:

Which I is that?

One of many false "I"s. I still use the word but even when "I' say it, "I" totally see this "I" like a hologram. Like when Captain Kirk would be beamed up and you would see his image pixelated coming to form in front of you.

BTW, How should I refer to me from now on Jon?

That is not to say that we cannot use language, labels, concepts, to take a stab at what we imagine may be going on. And these concepts, such as 'the unconscious' can be useful for various communication purposes.

Does this make sense to you?

Yes it does! that is the direction I took above that made you ask

Which I is that?

Jon I don't know if its that I am trying to re-figure this out. For a few years I have contemplated non-duality with frankly no resistance and obviously it has not sinked in until now. 2 weeks ago I was able to see no separation with everyone I was encountering. I am even going through a difficult divorce and I know that its because of seeing that there is no separation that I am seeing my still wife with very compassionate eyes in spite of the actions she is taking. That was a huge proof to me that a shift had occurred....and "I" am wondering..or my ego is wondering: What is the use of knowing that there is no me? so what? :-(

Jon I feel compelled to ask you: What is happening to me?

At the beginning of this journey I gave you my consent to dig deep and you can do so even if you are brutally honest and not honest with compassion.

Thank you for your patience and generous help.


Franklin

[JonathanR]

Hi Franklin,

. Jon....I sense I am hitting a wall. Not reverting because there is no putting this genie back in the bottle but kinda confused.

Ok. We can keep looking at things until you feel clear. I agree with you, it looks like the genie is out of the bottle.I suspect that it is only language ithst s making things seem complicated?

. One of many false "I"s. I still use the word but even when "I' say it, "I" totally see this "I" like a hologram. Like when Captain Kirk would be beamed up and you would see his image pixelated coming to form in front of you.

Yes, a hologram!

We guides tend to query the use of the personal pronoun 'I' until we feel sure that any hint of belief in a 'real, separately existing and controling self' is seen through. At the same time, for ordinary speech we need to use the 'I' word. So that dualistic and non- dual meanings can sometimes get mixed up. Sometimes one can say 'It is seen' rather than 'I see'. This is a slightly stilted way of talking but it can help the reader to understand that no 'person' is being implied.

. BTW, How should I refer to me from now on Jon?

Ordinarily, 'me' or 'I' is fine. And Anyone who has completed a conversation here at LU will tend to simply use these terms whilst understanding that they do not indicate a fixed entity. But to be ultra-clear in this conversation you could use the impersonal 'it is seen' way of expressing it, rather than 'I see'?

. Jon I don't know if its that I am trying to re-figure this out. For a few years I have contemplated non-duality with frankly no resistance and obviously it has not sinked in until now. 2 weeks ago I was able to see no separation with everyone I was encountering. I am even going through a difficult divorce and I know that its because of seeing that there is no separation that I am seeing my still wife with very compassionate eyes in spite of the actions she is taking.

That's beautiful. Perfect.

. and "I" am wondering..or my ego is wondering: What is the use of knowing that there is no me? so what? :-(

I know what you mean. There is nothing useful about it. ... Except that the 'I' that had seemed like such a fact, such a fixed thing, trying to control the universe, is now seen to be only imagined. Doesn't this make for a much more flexible situation than continuing to believe iin a 'fixed "me'?

. Jon I feel compelled to ask you: What is happening to me?

Well, now, first you must tell me a bit about what it is that is happening to you.

All the best,

Jon

[retro305]

I suspect that it is only language ithst s making things seem complicated?

Language and also at the same time, the simplicity of the whole thing :-)

'It is seen' rather than 'I see'. This is a slightly stilted way of talking but it can help the reader to understand that no 'person' is being implied.

I LOVET! or Its LOVED!!!

But to be ultra-clear in this conversation you could use the impersonal 'it is seen' way of expressing it, rather than 'I see'?

Copy that loud and clear.

Doesn't this make for a much more flexible situation than continuing to believe iin a 'fixed "me'?

Totally. Today I woke up with my feet on the ground of non duality and when I went out I was feeling a constant, non stop and super powerful enmeshment with everyone. Non duality at its maximum expression. Its like time doesn't even exists. Total peace and love. A true "natural high".

Well, now, first you must tell me a bit about what it is that is happening to you.

I don't know where I heard this before. The fruit stays on the tree until is ripe. Once its ready it falls off the tree and you can never put it back. I feel that's what happened to me. I have been plugged to this tree my whole life and suddenly I was ready and I fell off and I know and sometimes I don't know what to make of this.

I am a very ambitious person and everything that I wished is now on the back of the back burner. At the same time this sense of detachment brings a sense of that all the personal ideals that I have let go are now real....will now really come to pass. Am I making sense? Its as if I am in the last scene in the movie The Matrix when Neo is killed but then he realizes its all an illusion. Now his existence is effortless because there was not a "tangible" Neo to begin with. I don't have to dodge the bullets anymore.

Lets keep digging deeper please. Its feeling like a TV back in the 80's when we had an antenna and we were only getting local channels. Some stations where so close that the reception was crisp and clear and other stations one had to move the antenna from time to time to get better reception.

I feel that I caught the signal of the one real channel that existed and from moments I am losing the signal. Please continue to help me align myself totally with it.

Thank you Jon.