Looking for real things

[olgad]

yes, i am talking from physical body/medical knowledge i guess - this is way too fundamental to radically detach from it fast ;) i probably need to explain little more about how i look as it produces 2 different results.
i have 2 "methods/modes" of SEING with my closed eyes - i can switch between them.
Main one is when i actually direct and focus my eyes (closed) and LOOK forward through eye lids. (similar to how you do 3D vision with open eyes. you look through things - its a certain skill i acquired when i trained myself to be able to see 3d)
second when i just try to relax and see whatever i can do with not directed eyes,
first mode produces MORE visual details and it is pointed forward - i realize i used it when i talk about eyes and head.
second which i attempted few times and its harder for me for some reason to stay with - this one has no direction like first one, but i can't keep it long enough, i "fall into" first method, almost automatically. since i can't see much i try to "change the lense focus" to pierce it and it casuses all kind of muscle work and reconnects me with eyes strongly.
so for relaxed look - it is really nothing there. i am not even really seeing when i do it. its gray nothing - non directional and not locational.

[Xain]

yes, i am talking from physical body/medical knowledge i guess - this is way too fundamental to radically detach from it fast ;)

All that is needed is for you to notice where the answer or response is coming from.
Is it coming from what you can FIND in the exercise, or is it from THINKING what is going on i.e. from previous knowledge of what is assumed to be involved and assumed to be happening.

I am not certain what you are describing in your 'two ways of seeing' - It's not something I've come across before.

Let's move to 'eyes open' and see what can be established.

Right now instead of 'blackness', there will be a room of different objects appear / a computer screen etc
It doesn't matter what is seen, I'm simply going to refer to it as 'what can be seen'.

1) Right now in 'seeing' with eyes open, is there 'what can be seen'.
2) In 'seeing', is there anything else other than 'what can be seen'.
3) Can what is witnessing the experience be found? Or just 'what can be seen'?
4) Can an 'I', an Olga, a pair of eyes, a brain . . . anything at all separate be found that is doing the seeing . . . or is the only thing to be established in 'seeing' is 'what can be seen'.
What do you find?

Xain ♥

[olgad]

2) In 'seeing', is there anything else other than 'what can be seen'.
- no, there is only what can be seen'.
3) Can what is witnessing the experience be found? Or just 'what can be seen'?
- just what can be seen'.
4) Can an 'I', an Olga, a pair of eyes, a brain . . . anything at all separate be found that is doing the seeing . . . or is the only thing to be established in 'seeing' is 'what can be seen'.
- no, seeing isolated feeels like meditation state or field, it is just happening like breathing. all other things connected to mental. knowledge or thinking

[Xain]

Ok good.
Now the distance between objects and an apparent location where seeing appears to be being done isn't addressed in this guidance - That's a later stage.

You can only find 'what is seen' - So what about 'I am seeing' or 'Eyes are seeing' or even 'Olga is seeing' - Are these anything more than ideas and beliefs / thoughts?
No separate 'seer' can be established when one is looked for.

Xain x

[olgad]

So what about 'I am seeing' or 'Eyes are seeing' or even 'Olga is seeing' - Are these anything more than ideas and beliefs / thoughts?
No separate 'seer' can be established when one is looked for.

it seems to be a mental constructions,
while trying to "see" i felt i can percept seeing and hearing as their own "fields" of perception, but touch for example has association with the body which is touching by certain spot, but here i can see a contour on how to observe it withoutvattachment may be , but thoughts and emotions has the strongest tie with "me" . still very intellectual but little better

[Xain]

touch for example has association with the body which is touching by certain spot, but here i can see a contour on how to observe it without attachment may be , but thoughts and emotions has the strongest tie with "me"

We will do feeling, thoughts and emotions later. Right now, we are only concentrating on 'seeing'.
Please try to stay focussed.

It seems to be a mental constructions

Ok, good. That's not to suggest that it is right or wrong - Simply to note that any suggestion is only dependent on thoughts arising.

Let's move on to 'hearing' now - Approach this in the same way.
For the moment, focus solely on 'hearing' - Not the other senses.

Just rest for a moment and listen to the sounds in the room where you are, or from outside etc.
Whatever it is, I'll just refer to it simply as 'what can be heard'.

1) In 'hearing' can anything be found other than 'what can be heard'?
2) Can what is doing the witnessing be found? Or is there only 'what can be heard'?
3) An 'I'? A 'Body'? An 'Olga'? Can these be found? Or (as we saw before) are these statements from thought getting involved / as you say 'mental constructions'?

Xain ♥

[olgad]

1) In 'hearing' can anything be found other than 'what can be heard'?
2) Can what is doing the witnessing be found? Or is there only 'what can be heard'?
3) An 'I'? A 'Body'? An 'Olga'? Can these be found? Or (as we saw before) are these statements from thought getting involved / as you say 'mental constructions'?

In hearing all you can find is what is heard, in its "raw" form, hearing just happens as breathing happens.
Everything connected to hearing processing are mental constructions. I spent a lot of time in a car today and i was listening to a Mozart music for a while and it was very hard to "just hear" it. I used to be a piano player many years ago, so i am listening to the music with understanding what it takes to play this fast and brilliant, how fingers moves in a sequence you learn after repeating it many times, listening to different music parts when orchestra is playing etc - a LOT of MENTAL activity - in addition to all emotions that music causes and memories it brings etc. a fortress of mental constructions right here. When i retried the task at home with no music, any other sounds - it was much better, just sounds is what is being heard and anything else that arises as a result of listening to it - a mental processing. I started to catch this moment of attached processing after hearing any sound but not very clear and not always. it comes little too fast. Also since english is a second language for me, i know how to TURN my brain on when i need to process words and off to make them a mere 'noise" when it is not important and not too loud I don't want get involved (even i speak english for more than 25 years already i can still do it)

as for witness - not much being found in the exact process of hearing - i don't see anything/anybody who is witnessing the hearing.

[Xain]

as for witness - not much being found in the exact process of hearing - i don't see anything/anybody who is witnessing the hearing.

Good, so again, could anything separate which is suggested to be the witnesser of sound (e.g. I, this body, Olga etc . . .) . . . only ever be a mental construction? Or if you prefer, a belief that is held on to?

Xain ♥

[olgad]

Good, so again, could anything separate which is suggested to be the witnesser of sound (e.g. I, this body, Olga etc . . .) . . . only ever be a mental construction? Or if you prefer, a belief that is held on to?

in my belrif system it is my thinking brain that processes all data coming from physical senses and react to them , feelings, memories, emotions, more thinking. i intellectually understand that olga is a mental construct, but i dont feel it

[Xain]

In my belrif system it is my thinking brain that processes all data coming from physical senses and react to them

Remember I asked you to reply from what you can FIND and not from ideas about what you THINK is going on.
Where does 'brain' feature in your current experience?

I intellectually understand that olga is a mental construct, but i dont feel it

We will do 'feeling' shortly - Please try not to race ahead, and stay focussed.

In both 'seeing' and 'hearing', can an 'I', an Olga, a separate self be found 'operating these senses'?

Xain ♥

[olgad]

Or if you prefer, a belief that is held on to?

you started it! :)))) just kidding...

In both 'seeing' and 'hearing', can an 'I', an Olga, a separate self be found 'operating these senses'?

definitely NOT operating - nobody operates these senses in their primary form. but witnessing... this i am not 100% clear witness doesn't exist. as i know i am hearing and seeing. so something is witnessing.
but not operating.

[Xain]

as i know i am hearing and seeing. so something is witnessing.
but not operating.

What is this 'I' you are referring to? The one that does the witnessing?
What did you find in the exercises you did?

Xain ♥

[olgad]

i found that hearing and seeing as processes just happens without effort or control
but whoever we call i who operates my body and doing this task is witnessing these processes in order to write about experience.

[Xain]

But whoever we call i who operates my body and doing this task is witnessing these processes in order to write about experience.

Are you open to realise that there is no self operating the body?
That there is no self witnessing processes?
That there is no self writing about experience?

i found that hearing and seeing as processes just happens without effort or control

That wasn't quite what we examined in the guidance.
I was asking you if you could find a separate self, an 'I', a body etc that was performing these functions . . . not to realise that there WAS a seperate self or a body doing it without effort.

Xain ♥

[olgad]

i guess it is not working out or i am not ready.
thank you for the effort.
love
Olga