The Gate

Hi Floris,

without thought, how can a sensation even be a 'sense of control'?

That's very true. Control resides within thoughts but does not exist in actual experience. The actual experience is thought carrying a fancy concept.

if there is an inside or outside, inside or outside of what precisely?

It seems that there is an inside and outside of a mental projection of "my" body. I find it difficult to ignore what the mind says. I can only acknowledge it. But yeah, without that mental projection, inside and outside don't make sense.

With your eyes closed, what is the body in direct experience?

Hearing, smelling, touching... and lots of thoughts: memories of past events, planning the future, interpretation of what is heard, felt, and so on... Probably too much going on! I find it almost uncomfortable.

Happy new year (whatever that means :-))
Nil

I'll reply tomorrow.

Happy new year! :)

No problem, sounds good!

I tried the "inside/outside" thing again and I once more found that I have that mental image of my body that gives away spatial clues. I can see that inside/outside relationship stems from there. I still can't access the touching sensation without that mental image.

Another thing: I realized today that "I" likes to find whatever distraction it can in order to avoid the looking. I still do it several times a day but I feel resistance, like thoughts going "how about I watch a movie instead". Ironically, I know I have to get to the bottom of this investigation, because that "I" thing haunts me, creating unnecessary stories that makes life difficult. Whereas when I watch a dog or a cat or a -insert your favorite pet here-, I can see that it doesn't worry about the past and the future and it seems quite content that way!

That's all for now,
Cheers!

Hello:)

I tried the "inside/outside" thing again and I once more found that I have that mental image of my body that gives away spatial clues. I can see that inside/outside relationship stems from there. I still can't access the touching sensation without that mental image.

Good looking. You say ".. that I have that mental image of my body that.." Are these mental images of the body, or are it just mental images and that the "of the body" is added by thought?
Not sure if I express it properly. I can say, there is a mental image of a pink elephant, but the "of the pink elephant" implies that there is an pink elephant where the thought is about.

Another thing: I realized today that "I" likes to find whatever distraction it can in order to avoid the looking. I still do it several times a day but I feel resistance, like thoughts going "how about I watch a movie instead". Ironically, I know I have to get to the bottom of this investigation, because that "I" thing haunts me, creating unnecessary stories that makes life difficult. Whereas when I watch a dog or a cat or a -insert your favorite pet here-, I can see that it doesn't worry about the past and the future and it seems quite content that way!

Yes without distraction there wouldn't be any thought but just what is happening now. And where is the 'I" without thought?

Floris

Good evening!

Are these mental images of the body, or are it just mental images and that the "of the body" is added by thought?
Not sure if I express it properly. I can say, there is a mental image of a pink elephant, but the "of the pink elephant" implies that there is an pink elephant where the thought is about.

I think I get what you mean: The mental image is real (although probably a thought) and the thought of it being a body is real too, but is there really a body? That's question, isn't it? Good point...
Problem is, whenever I try to "access" the raw sensations, thoughts come in the way. I know they are part of the experience but I'm still identifying myself to them.

And where is the 'I" without thought?

Nowhere, apparently. But thoughts are quite insidious. They show up and take credit for a lot of what's happening. That sense of control again... Maybe more finger wiggling is in order!

Nil

Good morning!

Nowhere, apparently. But thoughts are quite insidious. They show up and take credit for a lot of what's happening. That sense of control again... Maybe more finger wiggling is in order!

So you want to have the thoughts that take credit and sense of control gone, and than you'll see that there is no self? Or perhaps the thoughts that take credit already are just thoughts and have nothing behind them, and the sense of control is perhaps already just a sensation + label? But is there anything behind them, is there a real entity living life, making decisions, etc?

Close your eyes, think of eating an apple, imagine color shape and size, how it feels holding it, really imagine it as realistic as possible, take a big bite, taste the skin, juices and pulp...............
Now open your eyes, where did your apple go? Was it ever there?
So could it be the same with “I” ?

F.

Hey Floris,

perhaps the thoughts that take credit already are just thoughts and have nothing behind them, and the sense of control is perhaps already just a sensation + label? But is there anything behind them, is there a real entity living life, making decisions, etc?

While trying to look at what is behind those thoughts, I find nothing except for other thoughts that go something like "ok, where did these thoughts come from?". They originate of course from the same "origin"... which doesn't really help. It's as if there was an inaccessible horizon. What's beyond that horizon? Nothing? (Don't answer that, gotta find out by myself; otherwise I'll add another concept I'll later need to bypass)

Close your eyes, think of eating an apple, imagine color shape and size, how it feels holding it, really imagine it as realistic as possible, take a big bite, taste the skin, juices and pulp...............
Now open your eyes, where did your apple go? Was it ever there?

I like that assignment, yummy! Truth is, I found the most difficult part in imagining that scenario was to recall what an apple actually tasted like. For the rest, I could imagine the situation fairly well. Except that once I open my eyes, I can see that imagination (or should I say thought) comes nowhere near reality. There never was an apple.
I've realized something just now. If I do eat a real apple, I'll probably sense the real thing, but the "apple" will only be a collection of senses (seeing, tasting, touching,...) with thought stating something like "I'm eating an apple".

So could it be the same with “I” ?

Very likely so. "I" seems to be imagined... by itself?!

Cheers!
Nil.

Hi Nil,

I've realized something just now. If I do eat a real apple, I'll probably sense the real thing, but the "apple" will only be a collection of senses (seeing, tasting, touching,...) with thought stating something like "I'm eating an apple".

Yes, that's a good discovery! Everything in the sentence "I'm eating an apple" is just languaging, purely for communication, where "eating" and "apple" indeed are only aspects of the senses, but the "I" (or "I'm") and "an".. do they point to anything?

Very likely so. "I" seems to be imagined... by itself?!

can a thought imagine a thought?

When you were a baby you didn't have any notion of an I and other, there was just sensory experience. Until one day, when your dad came in, and he said 'listen sweet little baby, you *sticks fingers in babies chest* are Nil, and I *points finger to other chest* am your dady named X'. The baby (which was nothing more than a collection of senses) over time learned to point at his chest and say 'Nil', than point to some other colors and say 'daddy' and everyone applauded and said 'yeah, good job! let's learn you some more'.

Floris

Everything in the sentence "I'm eating an apple" is just languaging, purely for communication, where "eating" and "apple" indeed are only aspects of the senses, but the "I" (or "I'm") and "an".. do they point to anything?

If anything, "I" would point to this body of mine. The action of eating an apple doesn't happen without it. On the other hand, I can see that "an" is just there for communication.

can a thought imagine a thought?

I was about to say yes, but no! It's tricky: thought can refer to another thought as a pointer but it did not imagine itself!

When you were a baby you didn't have any notion of an I and other, there was just sensory experience. Until one day, when your dad came in, and he said 'listen sweet little baby, you *sticks fingers in babies chest* are Nil, and I *points finger to other chest* am your dady named X'. The baby (which was nothing more than a collection of senses) over time learned to point at his chest and say 'Nil', than point to some other colors and say 'daddy' and everyone applauded and said 'yeah, good job! let's learn you some more'.

Agreed. But the thing is, a lot of time has passed since then and I'm now plagued with a pile of notions, including one that says that "I" exists and is in charge of "my" actions.
That said, I often wondered how thinking worked for babies (free of any language knowledge) and to a greater extent animals. I suppose that it all boils down to: [sensory input] -> [?] -> [reaction], where [?] can be replaced by whatever story one likes, such as [brain thinking], [cpu processing], [jack in the box].

Goodday,

If anything, "I" would point to this body of mine. The action of eating an apple doesn't happen without it. On the other hand, I can see that "an" is just there for communication.

Okay but where in direct experience is the body, and what would make it "I"? If there is a sensation in your toe, you don't call it "I", so why any other sensation, or any sight?
And to what does the "body" belong anyway? Where is that that owns anything. Surely merely the thought or label 'I' doesn't own anything anymore than the color red owns anything right?

I was about to say yes, but no! It's tricky: thought can refer to another thought as a pointer but it did not imagine itself!

Are you even sure a thought does or can refer to anything? Does an arrow really point to something, or do we only think it does because the whole world agrees on it?

Floris

Good evening!

where in direct experience is the body, and what would make it "I"?

I'd say the body is a collection of senses augmented by a thought stating "my body". The "my" makes it "I". But in direct experience, it's only a thought, I guess...

If there is a sensation in your toe, you don't call it "I", so why any other sensation, or any sight?

True. Even if "I" existed, the sensation would be perceived by it, but the sensation wouldn't be "I".

And to what does the "body" belong anyway? Where is that that owns anything. Surely merely the thought or label 'I' doesn't own anything anymore than the color red owns anything right?

A color clearly owns nothing. Sight owns nothing. Sensations own nothing. Thought doesn't own anything, but conveys a concept of ownership. But ownership doesn't exist outside of thought.

Are you even sure a thought does or can refer to anything? Does an arrow really point to something, or do we only think it does because the whole world agrees on it?

Funny you should mention that arrow example: I had thought about that before! Great minds think alike ;-)
That said, some thoughts sure seem like they refer to another thought. To take the apple example again, a thought like "there's an apple on the counter" points to several concepts: existence, location and object. All of them being concepts, they gotta be pointers to thoughts. But I'm not so sure anymore. To be honest, this somewhat confuses me.

Thanks!
Nil

I'd say the body is a collection of senses augmented by a thought stating "my body". The "my" makes it "I". But in direct experience, it's only a thought, I guess...

No 'I guess' allowed here! :D

True. Even if "I" existed, the sensation would be perceived by it, but the sensation wouldn't be "I".

Even if "I" existed, than what would it be? would it be something in experience, or perhaps even something outside of it? How could 'I' perceive if we only find it as thought?

To take the apple example again, a thought like "there's an apple on the counter" points to several concepts: existence, location and object.

Not sure if I completely get you. on a practical level I'm with you, the word 'apple' refers to something. But in our actual experience does it really point to anything? Actually now to me 'apple' is just a piece of seeing/sight, and it isn't performing any function like pointing.

'morning Floris!

No 'I guess' allowed here! :D

Yes, sir! No more guessing/supposing. Just looking at direct experience. Thanks for the slap.

Even if "I" existed, than what would it be? would it be something in experience, or perhaps even something outside of it? How could 'I' perceive if we only find it as thought?

The closest thing to an "I" is an idea, a concept that resides in thought. In actual experience, "I" is a thought. I can see that. Problem is, I still identify with arising thoughts... which is ridiculous come to think of it. I mean, if "I" were a real thing, I wouldn't have to actually look for it! (O_o)

Not sure if I completely get you. on a practical level I'm with you, the word 'apple' refers to something. But in our actual experience does it really point to anything? Actually now to me 'apple' is just a piece of seeing/sight, and it isn't performing any function like pointing.

I think I picked the wrong word. Instead of "refer", "label" seems more correct. But you are totally, right: "apple" isn't performing anything. I doesn't point to anything. I can see that now. It's just a label, like a though ornament of some kind which in turn help "me" function through this world.

Gotta say, I enjoy you challenging "me". Good stuff! Ah, I perceive a thought stating "But enjoyment isn't the goal, here. I need to get to the bottom of this". Now again, where is the "I"?! The bottom of what?! "Enjoyment"? "Goal"? WTF am "I" trying to get to? More pondering to come for my daily commute.

Thanks!
Nil

Good morning Nil!

The closest thing to an "I" is an idea, a concept that resides in thought. In actual experience, "I" is a thought. I can see that. Problem is, I still identify with arising thoughts... which is ridiculous come to think of it. I mean, if "I" were a real thing, I wouldn't have to actually look for it! (O_o)

Yes good stuff. So is there anything/anyone identifying with arising thoughts, or is this too, just a thought/idea? Is there a center to be found in all this mess?

I think I picked the wrong word. Instead of "refer", "label" seems more correct. But you are totally, right: "apple" isn't performing anything. I doesn't point to anything. I can see that now. It's just a label, like a though ornament of some kind which in turn help "me" function through this world.

Yes, nice.

Gotta say, I enjoy you challenging "me". Good stuff! Ah, I perceive a thought stating "But enjoyment isn't the goal, here. I need to get to the bottom of this". Now again, where is the "I"?! The bottom of what?! "Enjoyment"? "Goal"? WTF am "I" trying to get to? More pondering to come for my daily commute.

Ha yes, good questions. did a you ever come to liberation unleashed looking for (uhh I don't know..) freedom? Is there even something that can become free?!

Keep at it :)
Floris

Hey Floris,

So is there anything/anyone identifying with arising thoughts, or is this too, just a thought/idea? Is there a center to be found in all this mess?

Identifying myself with arising thoughts is indeed another thought... that I'm still identifying with... How do I get out of this vicious circle?! Was there a vicious circle to begin with? ...

did a you ever come to liberation unleashed looking for (uhh I don't know..) freedom? Is there even something that can become free?!

I'm not even sure anymore why I came to liberation unleashed in the first place. It seems that "I" isn't even sure why he does things. Looking back at my opening post, I wrote "I don't want to be convinced that there is no "I", I want to see it for a fact, an irrefutable one." Still not there yet. But then, how can "I" be convinced of anything if "I" doesn't exist?!

In other news, a funny thing happened to me earlier. I was watching that dude's video and the way the scene was lit made one side of his face brighter than the rest, almost white. At some point, I for some reason registered that white area as paint, as if this dude's face was painted on his side. And then, that white spot looked to me like a white form moving as the guy was talking. Pretty weird and probably irrelevant, but I thought I would share my story.

Keep at it :)

I intend to. In fact, got the whole weekend planned for "looking".

Thanks,
Nil