Surrender

[Hannah B-T]

It's been a couple of days so things may have moved on here but let's look at your last response:

Sometimes it feels like the sensations in the head and sometimes other body parts contain "me"

Describe this me that is contained within the body. Forget the quotation marks ;), is there just sensation? Or is there a me there? If so, describe that me in detail and how it is known.

Body could be said to be a label for certain sensations, tactile and kinasthetic?
Yes. It is easy to do this experiment with eyes closed, but when eyes are open it is harder.

Why is that, because with eyes open there is also images of body parts?

Take a look at ths video. Then i want you to examine separately the image 'my hand' and the sensations labelled 'my hand'.
Is anything about that raw image itself saying anthing about 'me' or 'mine'?
Is anything about the raw sensations saying anything about 'me' or 'mine'?
If not, where and what is the 'me/mine' bit?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxwn1w7MJvk

So if 'body' is experienced, how can it also be 'that which experiences'? Can't it experience and be experiencer? That is what is seems like. All one thing that contains the body but can also seem like the body. My experience is mostly that I am the body though.

This confuses me after the previous experiments where it seemed very clear that a perceiver residing in or as the body could not be found. Or has one been found now? If so bring the evidence for examination :)

How much of the body woud have to be lost before it ceased being 'you'? An arm? An arm and a leg? The torso? The head? Not biologically, this is a thought experiment. If there is a feeling 'i am the body' or 'i am inside part of the body' then investigate that idea a bit further and sees if it even makes logical sense?

So I just need to keep looking and inquiring.

Is there a real existent I that is looking and inquiring?

What exactly is the 'personality' you mention here. How would you describe what a personality is?

What makes "Louise" accent, facial/body features/mannerisms, voice, tendencies, sense of humour, constitution, life story and preferences.
[/quote]
Ok, you've given an extensive list here. Let's focus a bit, look at that list and pick out one aspect that seems least like a function of life, and most 'personal'.
Like, if you suddenly had a different accent, would a different personality appear?

xx

[Colour]

Sometimes it feels like the sensations in the head and sometimes other body parts contain "me"

Describe this me that is contained within the body. is there just sensation? Or is there a me there? If so, describe that me in detail and how it is known.
It is so hard to describe, probably because there is nothing to describe ;)
As always, There is no me found. Just sensations, then thoughts.
Strong seeing that thoughts seem to be me. Yes, I really think I am my thoughts! That familiar voice thing again, makes me think that is

Yes. It is easy to do this experiment with eyes closed, but when eyes are open it is harder.
[/quote]
Why is that, because with eyes open there is also images of body parts?
Yes.

Take a look at ths video. Then i want you to examine separately the image 'my hand' and the sensations labelled 'my hand'.
Is anything about that raw image itself saying anthing about 'me' or 'mine'? No


If not, where and what is the 'me/mine' bit?
Not in that hand, that's for sure.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxwn1w7MJvk


This confuses me after the previous experiments where it seemed very clear that a perceiver residing in or as the body could not be found. Or has one been found now? If so bring the evidence for examination :)
Sigh. No, no perceiver found. I just seem to revert back to old beliefs without looking.

How much of the body woud have to be lost before it ceased being 'you'? An arm? An arm and a leg? The torso? The head? Not biologically, this is a thought experiment. If there is a feeling 'i am the body' or 'i am inside part of the body' then investigate that idea a bit further and sees if it even makes logical sense?

I only seem to be stuck with this biologically. Arms legs, removed, I would still be there. Torso removed equals heart gone... body would die so experiment flawed. Same with head removed and brain gone.

When I investigate I am inside the body, I realise thoughts are more what is thought to be the me, even more than sensations. Both together even more believed.

But having looked at thoughts before they are seen to be things arising and disappearing





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[Colour]

Oops! Sorry Hannah, I pressed reply and hadn't finished ;)

So I just need to keep looking and inquiring.

Is there a real existent I that is looking and inquiring?

Who is asking? ;)

Sorry, had to throw that back :) No I can be found doing all of this. Crazy.


What makes "Louise" accent, facial/body features/mannerisms, voice, tendencies, sense of humour, constitution, life story and preferences.
[/quote]
Ok, you've given an extensive list here. Let's focus a bit, look at that list and pick out one aspect that seems least like a function of life, and most 'personal'.
Like, if you suddenly had a different accent, would a different personality appear? No, it would be the same. I was thinking of personality more as how others would identify you from someone else.

Facial features.

Xxx




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[Hannah B-T]

Yes, I really think I am my thoughts! That familiar voice thing again, makes me think that is

I think I am my thoughts. Take a good look at how many 'I's are in that sentance :)
Ok, try this. Imagine instead of these thoughts being you or yours, all thoughts i.e 'voice in the head' that comes up is from an invisible woman standing 6 inches behind your left shoulder and following you around commentating on every little piece of perception, action or memory image that arises.

Then when that gets annoying enough :) Have a look at what would be left if the woman just walked off and took the commentary with her.
Would something, a self suddenly go missing? Would anything that essential be lost? Could life carry on anyway?

Sigh. No, no perceiver found. I just seem to revert back to old beliefs without looking.

That's fine. That's why I'm still here :)

Torso removed equals heart gone... body would die so experiment flawed. Same with head removed and brain gone.

Ok, no problem.

No, it would be the same. I was thinking of personality more as how others would identify you from someone else.

Facial features.

Ok, so could you say there is just a simple association with image and labelling going on here? Like, see green round fruit, label 'apple', see certain pattern of facial features, label 'Louise'?
Remember when We did the photo experiment. The baby pictures could equally be labelled 'Louise' as the image in the mirror, even though they were totally different. So that points to this labelling process being fluid and conditional, not a real inherent thing, doesn't it?
An analogy might be you could look at 100's of different chairs, but still label them all 'chair'.
If someone demanded... 'no, which one is the real chair'...

Let's look a little at possession.

Look at these things that could be labelled as 'mine', tell me how that looks now. Look for the 'I' that apparently possesses these things. Look for any mechanism in experience of 'possession' or 'ownership'.

My computer
My car
My house/flat
My money
My memories
My pet
My lover
My mother
My daughter

x

[Colour]

Yes, I really think I am my thoughts! That familiar voice thing again, makes me think that is

I think I am my thoughts. Take a good look at how many 'I's are in that sentance :)

Hahaha!

Ok, try this. Imagine instead of these thoughts being you or yours, all thoughts i.e 'voice in the head' that comes up is from an invisible woman standing 6 inches behind your left shoulder and following you around commentating on every little piece of perception, action or memory image that arises.

Then when that gets annoying enough :)
That was so interesting. When she was there, the I dropped out of commentary and it became... Don't forget to cancel that appointment. But then she asked How is your pain level today? Of course I didn't answer

Have a look at what would be left if the woman just walked off and took the commentary with her.
Would something, a self suddenly go missing? Would anything that essential be lost? Could life carry on anyway?

Woah!! That was weird!!! It is quiet, spacious and twilight zoney.

Sigh. No, no perceiver found. I just seem to revert back to old beliefs without looking.

That's fine. That's why I'm still here.

Xxxx

No, it would be the same. I was thinking of personality more as how others would identify you from someone else.

Facial features.

Ok, so could you say there is just a simple association with image and labelling going on here? Like, see green round fruit, label 'apple', see certain pattern of facial features, label 'Louise'?

Yes you could say that.

Remember when We did the photo experiment. The baby pictures could equally be labelled 'Louise' as the image in the mirror, even though they were totally different. So that points to this labelling process being fluid and conditional, not a real inherent thing, doesn't it?
True.
An analogy might be you could look at 100's of different chairs, but still label them all 'chair'.
If someone demanded... 'no, which one is the real chair'...
Oh, I see. Yes.

Let's look a little at possession.

Look at these things that could be labelled as 'mine', tell me how that looks now. Look for the 'I' that apparently possesses these things. Look for any mechanism in experience of 'possession' or 'ownership'.

My computer
My car
My house/flat
My money
My memories
My pet
My lover
My mother
My daughter

I found no possession for all of them except My mother and my daughter. When I think of them there were many stories but that is all they are. Thoughts again.
If there were no thoughts, would there be any world? I always wonder that.

Xx

x

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[Hannah B-T]

When she was there, the I dropped out of commentary and it became... Don't forget to cancel that appointment. But then she asked How is your pain level today? Of course I didn't answer

Maybe try that one again and ask her 'who/what are you talking to?' ;)

Woah!! That was weird!!! It is quiet, spacious and twilight zoney.

You might be interested in Gary Webber's experience. This is not to set up in any way that these voice in the head thoughts need to disappear, however his experience is they are pretty much totally unnecessary.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WnWxCgiZfrc

I found no possession for all of them except My mother and my daughter. When I think of them there were many stories but that is all they are. Thoughts again.

Was there any bodily reaction to the ideas of 'my mother' or 'my daughter', aprt from words and images 'stories' about them?

If there were no thoughts, would there be any world? I always wonder that.

Pragmatically this is why I like Gary's analysis. He is simply looknig at what types of thought (self referential ruminating I thoughts, tend to over complicate life). Various spiritual teachings have their own analysis of this type of stuff like Emptiness teachings. But that's quite metaphyscial and not our focus here.

So let's check in at this point.
If I ask directly now your 'gut' response to the question:

Is there a separate self existing in any way or form, was there ever?

What is the response?
Then any doubting thoughts follow on from that that we still need to examine together?

[Colour]

Maybe try that one again and ask her 'who/what are you talking to?' ;)
Ha!


You might be interested in Gary Webber's experience. This is not to set up in any way that these voice in the head thoughts need to disappear, however his experience is they are pretty much totally unnecessary.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WnWxCgiZfrc

Yes, I am very familiar with Gary and Rich. Thanks for reminder.


Was there any bodily reaction to the ideas of 'my mother' or 'my daughter', aprt from words and images 'stories' about them?
Yes, sensations in chest area.


So let's check in at this point.
If I ask directly now your 'gut' response to the question:

Is there a separate self existing in any way or form, was there ever?

What is the response?

No. Never.

Then any doubting thoughts follow on from that that we still need to examine together?[/quote]

"Give up the charade," are the thoughts that follow. Enough is enough.





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[Hannah B-T]

Was there any bodily reaction to the ideas of 'my mother' or 'my daughter', aprt from words and images 'stories' about them?
Yes, sensations in chest area.

The relationship between sensations and ideas/ emotions can be further explored as needed, it's just I wanted to make sure that dynamic was recognised so things don't go to a nihilistic place of 'it's all a story', ignoring painful or unpleasant sensations that may still benefit from further investigation in the future.

Is there a separate self existing in any way or form, was there ever?

What is the response?

No. Never.

Ok, sounds pretty confident! That is the first of the standard 6 questions we use here. Are you ok if I go ahead and ask the rest now and then will get some other guides to see if any further pointers come out of that?

"Give up the charade," are the thoughts that follow. Enough is enough.

Is there such a thing as a 'spiritual seeker'?
Was there any choice in pursuing this inquiry with such vigour?
Is it ok to rest now and see what happens next?

xx

[Colour]

Was there any bodily reaction to the ideas of 'my mother' or 'my daughter', aprt from words and images 'stories' about them?
Yes, sensations in chest area.

The relationship between sensations and ideas/ emotions can be further explored as needed, it's just I wanted to make sure that dynamic was recognised so things don't go to a nihilistic place of 'it's all a story', ignoring painful or unpleasant sensations that may still benefit from further investigation in the future.

Not sure I understand what you mean here.do you mean, not to keep bypassing sensations with thoughts saying none of it is real?

Is there a separate self existing in any way or form, was there ever?

What is the response?

No. Never.

Ok, sounds pretty confident! That is the first of the standard 6 questions we use here. Are you ok if I go ahead and ask the rest now and then will get some other guides to see if any further pointers come out of that?

Yes, sure.

"Give up the charade," are the thoughts that follow. Enough is enough.

Is there such a thing as a 'spiritual seeker'?

No, none has been found on investigation.

Was there any choice in pursuing this inquiry with such vigour?

No choice whatsoever!

Is it ok to rest now and see what happens next?

Yes, it is. Thank you xxx

xx

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[Hannah B-T]

Not sure I understand what you mean here.do you mean, not to keep bypassing sensations with thoughts saying none of it is real?

yes, that's what I meant. See how things go.

Here are the other questions. Just go with the gut response answers-

1. Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
   Describe it fully as you see it now.
2. How does it feel to see this?
   What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
   Please report from the past few days.
3. What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
   ­
   ­
4. Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.
   What makes things happen?
   How does it work?
   Give examples from recent day to day experience.
5. Anything to add?

[Colour]

Here are the other questions. Just go with the gut response answers-

1. Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
   The illusion of a separate self is when we believe the concepts and conditioning that we have been told by parents, peers and others that intimate that we are this body/mind. I have no idea when it started for me, but I quickly believed that I was a body and separate to everything in the world. I remember being very fearful at fours years of age at kinder, thinking I did not fit in and was different.
   
   
   Describe it fully as you see it now.
   Now I don't see a separate self at all if I look. Quite hilarious really that no-one pointed this out before! So no-one here, but so much seeing, hearing, tasting and sensations happening.
2. How does it feel to see this?
   Expansive and freeing.
   What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
   An increase in silence. Not so many thoughts about future, past etc. i mean, they are definitely still coming up, that's for sure. But when I notice, I look and often laugh, as I see what's really here.
3. What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
   It seemed to be a realization that I thought I was my thoughts. My voice in my thoughts was me. Then how funny that was when questioned and looked at.
   ­
   ­
4. Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.
   What makes things happen?
   How does it work?
   Give examples from recent day to day experience.
   I have absolutely no idea what makes anything happen any more. I used to think a separate I controlled most things in life. Recently over the past five months I have been really sick and in a lot of pain. Seems to be an autoimmune thing. I am a naturopath, who believed I could control my health by avoiding certain foods, blah blah..... And then this illness arises out of nowhere. I definitely would not have chosen it,
   and have had little success altering its natural course. So I have used it to look at. I could not find who the pain was happening to, there were just sensations labelled pain. I could not find who the blaming was directed at for acquiring the sensations. They just kept arising or abating with no regard for what thoughts were advising ;) seems stuff happens and is labelled and claimed afterwards by a separate self that can't be found!
5. Anything to add?

[/quote]

No, nothing right now.



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[Hannah B-T]

Ok thanks, things do seem much calmer now, lovely to see.

let's see if the other guides have ay further questions. this can take a day or two sometimes, so bear with me.

x

[Hannah B-T]

Well, looks like we are wrapping up here, there are no more questions from the other guides.

I will send you a PM with further details.

It's been great!

Hannah
x

[Colour]

I cannot thank you enough Hannah [HEAVY BLACK HEART]️[HEAVY BLACK HEART]️


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[Colour]

I cannot thank you enough Hannah xxx


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