The Gate

Hi Nina,

thank you very much for wanting to continue this process!

If i do the exercise, the thougt comes up "What does she mean by "you?", a feeling of confusion comes up which is felt as a little pressure in the solar plexus area because it is resisted. Then i opened my eyes to write down what happened with a little fear of maybe doing the exercise not correctly (felt as a sensation of contraction in the solar plexus area). After having written down down what i perseived, there is the feeling of pride and happiness as a sensation of a warm streaming where the contraction was before.
Are this enogh detais?

If i would have written down only what i persieved, it would have made probably not much sense for you, thatswhy i labeled them as the different feelings while writing down what i "saw".

I hope, i understood the exercise correctly- strictly speaking, what i persieved by seeing, would have been shimmering lights.

I can write more details, if you wish.


Tank you for being with me, i hope our conversation will be more fruitful than the one with Xain.

Very best wishes

Stefan

Hi Stephan,

Is it possible to visualise a picture of a cup?
A giraffe?
A spoon?

Some people find it very difficult to see mental images/ pictures. Is this the case with you?

Or is it possible to see a mental image of a car, for example?

Best wishes

Nina

Hi Nina,

yes, i seem to belong to the category of people who find it difficult to visualize (this problem i had also with all this tibetan practices).
I "see" mostly patrs of the things you are mentioned, not very clear and not for a long time, at least for more complex things- a cup or a spoon i can "see" for some time.

I have read a few posts from you this morning, you seem to be very clear and in addition to that (and probably in addition to Xain...) you seem to be in contact with your emotions.
So i am very happy to be guided by you!

Very best wishes and kind regards

Stefan

Thank you Stefan,

It is great to know that visualisation is more difficult for you!

Are there thoughts "you have about yourself" that repeat themselves and are familiar? Stories about yourself perhaps? Are there things that people have said about you that you believe? Things that seem to be your "identity" or "personality"?
e.g. Stefan is clever
Stefan is generous
Stefan in a good friend

Are there sentences like this that it is possible to write down here?

Best wishes
Nina

This is what my girlfriend just said abou me:
Stefan is very interested in spirituality.
Stefan loves nature.
Stefan loves India and unfortunatly advaita.
Stefan needs silence like a fish needs water.

Yes , visualization is difficult for me, somehow i dont see things really, its more like thinking that things things are there.

I forgot: stefan loves to eat kaiserschmarrn and palak paneer.

She also said: Stefan is a teddy bear...

Hi Stefan,

Are there any of those sentences that are believed? Does a convincing sensation arise in response to any of the sentences?

Stefan is very interested in spirituality.
Stefan loves nature.
Stefan loves India and unfortunatly advaita.
Stefan needs silence like a fish needs water.
Stefan loves to eat kaiserschmarrn and palak paneer.
Stefan is a teddy bear.

Belief seems to be more than a thought; there is usually sensation that appears to be linked to the thought. Is it possible to find the sensation + thought?

Is it possible to describe?

Best wishes

Nina

Hi Nina,

a little "convincing sensation" arises when i read "Stefan loves nature" and "Stefan likes to eat..." as a slight feeling (its not a physical sensation) like widening in the chest area, a feeling like warm spreading, lightness and opening there. Its not very strong.

"Stefan likes silence" is the most convincing sentence i found, it triggers the same feelings a little bit stronger- feelings of joy.
The thoughts that arise are: This is not really convincing, since i dont know: What is Stefan? Does he like silence really (sometimes he likes also to just move around carelessly without silence)? What is silence? Is it stillness outside or inside the mind? Or does he like more the feeling which arises together with the silence?

Hi Stefan,

a little "convincing sensation" arises when i read "Stefan loves nature" and "Stefan likes to eat..." as a slight feeling (its not a physical sensation) like widening in the chest area, a feeling like warm spreading, lightness and opening there. Its not very strong.

How is a sensation "not physical"?
How exactly is a sensation known?

"Stefan likes silence" is the most convincing sentence i found, it triggers the same feelings a little bit stronger- feelings of joy.

So the sensations are greater with 'Stefan likes silence'. That is really good to know.
How is it known that these sensations are "joy"?

Very best wishes

Nina

Hi Nina,

How is a sensation "not physical"?

A sensation is not physical (as i am using the words), if it is not felt in the material body, as a change in the body like pain or touch or feelings that affect the body.

How exactly is a sensation known?

A sensation is known by experiencing it, memorizing similar sensations and then naming it accordance to the labels one has used previously.

How is it known that these sensations are "joy"?

In the same way as described above: experiencing expansion, memorizing similar experiences and their labels and then knowing: this sensation is joy.

Best wishes

Stefan

Thanks for the reply Stefan!

How is it possible

that there is a sensation that is not "in the body"? Is it possible the sensation is known outside physical experience?

Try this exercise:

What is a thought?

What is a sensation?

Does a sensation know anything about a thought?

Does a thought know what it is like to be a sensation?

What is it that seems to link a thought to a sensation?

In the same way as described above: experiencing expansion, memorizing similar experiences and their labels and then knowing: this sensation is joy.

This is a great answer Stefan!
It sounds a bit like thought is seen like a filing cabinet of memories?
It is sorted through until a match is found for "joy"?

But ... does the sensation know anything about "joy"?
Could it be that thought is attempting to find a solution to the "problem" of sensation?
Does thought know what it is like to be a sensation?

Good luck with looking Stefan!

Nina
xxx

Hi Nina,

maybe my answers are not very profound, but i dont want to think anymore about this things...

How is it possible,
that there is a sensation that is not "in the body"?

It is possible to make a distinction between feelings that have a more physical component, f. e. joy that is so strong that your body swings, vibrates and shakes, an upward moving energy is felt that is so strong, that the body twists automatically after some time to stop this feelings. Or fear (like this morning at 4 AM) that goes together with a strong pain in the stomach.
A sensation that is not felt in the body is for example the joy experienced by imagining meeting a friend or fear imagining somebody who does not like you- it seems to be felt in the body, but if you look closely, there is nothing felt in the pysical body, at least in my experience.

Of course, one could call also all sensations physical, because they need the five senses to be experienced.

Is it possible the sensation is known outside physical experience?

No, you need physical experience.

Try this exercise:

What is a thought?

A thought is an experience, usually words or pictures, that are not persieved by the 5 physical senses.

What is a sensation?

A sensation is an experience persieved by the 5 physical senses.

Does a sensation know anything about a thought?

No.

Does a thought know what it is like to be a sensation?

No, they are two different things.

What is it that seems to link a thought to a sensation?

They are not really linked in my experience right now: there is either a thought persieved or a sensation. They seem to be linked in memory (the fear/ pain this morning seemed to go together with the thought „This process is maybe not good for me.“, but if i would have looked more closely, the sensation came after the thought and stopped when other thoughts occured, like „Just welcome it, you have experienced this fear before so many times, it will pass soon.“

It sounds a bit like thought is seen like a filing cabinet of memories?
It is sorted through until a match is found for "joy"?

Thought is not a filing cabinet that is sorted, that are just thoughts about thoughts.
Ok, i was not staying with my experience, but just wrote down my thoughts. I will try to be more aware next time...

But ... does the sensation know anything about "joy"?

No, it does not know, because it is not labeling or thinking about it. (i hope by knowing you mean identifying, labeling it)

Could it be that thought is attempting to find a solution to the "problem" of sensation?

A thought is just happening, it is not attempting something.
But it looks like this- as if thoughts are important, because they are trying to protect us. The best protection is to be without thoughts or at least without attatchment to them.

Does thought know what it is like to be a sensation?

No, they are two different things.


It really does not feel good, to think so much about these things...

Have a nice day!

Stefan

Hi Stefan,

That is great looking at different experiences of thought and sensation!

Absolutely, it seems like thoughts are trying to protect us! Of course, thoughts can't DO anything. But thoughts are there for a reason. Sensation is there for a reason too.

It really does not feel good, to think so much about these things...

Can you explain what doesn't feel good?

Very best wishes

Nina
Xxx

Hi Nina,

It really does not feel good, to think so much about these things...


Can you explain what doesn't feel good?

It generally does not feel good, to think so much:the body is getting tensed, there is a pressure felt in the heart and in the head, the back is in pain.
And then a feeling of nausea when the thought came "Next time she will ask you: What is mind?"...

There are a lot of thoughts every day about this dialogues here- maybe out of fear of rejection, maybe because this process got quite some intensity- the prospect of either getting liberated or simply going mad makes the mind spin around...

The amount of thoughts seems to have increased a lot after seeing that there is no self, altough they are not taken as so important anymore.
But still- it feels better to relax a bit, than to think even more...


Thank you for asking me how i feel!
It feels much more easy to write about this, it feels like talking about something more real.
And i feel more connected- it feels very good, if somebody seems to be interested in how i feel.
Thank you- if this is the case!

Again so much writing about myself- still there is so much self-concern...
How are you, what are you feeling?

All the best
Stefan