Who am I?

[Gilford]

Hi Steve,

Sorry for the delay in replying. Work has been very busy the last couple of days.

When you look at a cup, you can't see the back of it, but the mind creates a mental image with the back of the cup filled in. In the same way, the mind "knows" you are there looking, so it creates a mental image of that. What you've got to do is discern between what is imagined to be there, and what can actually be found. It takes a bit of practice.

When i look and i inquire into who is looking, i turn the attention onto 'the looker'. Often, when i do this, i sometimes see a mental image of 'my face'. So i can see how the mind projects the sense of self as the looker.

I spent a lot of time last night sitting down and looking. Listening to sounds and listening to music. Listening to sounds is interesting because there is just listening. When i do this there i can't detect a boundary. Sometimes attention turns to a bodily sensation and it feels like there is a 'me' listening. Or a thought pops up about a a sound and there is a sense of 'me' that is hearing the sound. I see these as just thoughts and just sensations but it does still feel like there is something here that is aware of objects that is separate from the objects.

I can't find a real me. But it is an idea that just won't go away. Sometimes it feels hopeless.

[blackh]

Hi Patrick,

Thanks for doing those exercises. It looks like you have no doubt that experiential evidence of a self can't be found outside the content of thought. This is pretty important.

I can't find a real me. But it is an idea that just won't go away. Sometimes it feels hopeless.

This is a common predicament! OK, do this:

Close your eyes. Imagine that you are holding a spoon.
Imagine its form, size, weight, and temperature; feel the imaginary spoon as vividly as you possibly can for a few minutes.

Do this exercise before reading further.

Open your eyes; is there a spoon here, in real life? Was there ever a spoon?
How did you see that there is no spoon?
What happened to the spoon?
Did it disappear or did it never exist?
How about the sense perceptions you felt while imagining the spoon? We're they real? Were sensations happening?
Look around the room and notice what is real. Can you see the absence of a spoon?


Steve

[Gilford]

Open your eyes; is there a spoon here, in real life? Was there ever a spoon?

No there was never a spoon.

How did you see that there is no spoon?

It was obvious that there was no spoon.

What happened to the spoon?

It never existed. I saw it for what it was - a mental concept.

Did it disappear or did it never exist?

It never existed.

How about the sense perceptions you felt while imagining the spoon? We're they real? Were sensations happening?

They felt real. But they were not real. It was an illusion created by the mind.

Look around the room and notice what is real. Can you see the absence of a spoon?

Yes, i can see that there is no spoon and there never was a spoon.

I've tried this a few times with the self. I can see how these questions can be very useful. I will continue to try it.

[blackh]

Hi Patrick,

Exercises like this one seem pretty basic, but they're important because our perception is a combination of reality and imagination, and we need to separate them. So thanks for that - good work.

Imagine four scenarios (or try some of them out):

1. Looking at a tree.
2. Closing your eyes after looking at a tree and imagining the tree in front of you.
3. Seeing a spaceship in the air in front of you at a 3D movie.
4. A child thinking about Santa at the North Pole.

All of these involve a mental image of an object. 1 & 3 involve the mental object being overlaid onto something seen with the eyes. 3 is different because there are two simultaneous interpretations of what the object is - one believed and one not believed.

Self is like Santa in one way. Its existence is inferred from phenomena (presents appearing at Christmas time/body actions), but in some ways it's like the 3D movie because the body, the mind and the culture are all conspiring to make self look real. The actual appearance won't change. Sensations you previously interpreted as "I am in here" and "I'm doing it" will stay the same. So we need to be like the moviegoer.

See how you go with that pointer. It takes persistent looking and time. It will shift from an intellectual understanding to something deeper when it's ready to. Please write me a little about how you feel. Is there any frustration, fear, confusion, or anything else?


Steve

[Gilford]

Thanks Steve. I am trying to be more and more persistent. When i notice that the sense of self has arised, i don't feel like it is good enough to just notice it and move on. This is something that i have been doing in the past. I need to also see how the sense of self arose and remind myself what exactly i am trying to do. Otherwise i am just trying to see with thinking. It is amazing how often i forget what the whole point of the inquiry is and i need to keep reminding myself (so to speak).

Speaking of forgetting...this may or may not be related to the inquiring that i have been doing. Lately, i have been forgetful. I'll do a task and i'll forget that i have done it or i'll forget some small details. This is very unusual for me. I usually have a very good memory. Sometimes i am even forgetting words. It's frustrating. Could this have something to do with the practices i have been doing?

[blackh]

Patrick,

Tell me a bit about the emotional side of the forgetfulness. You're frustrated when it happens but what is the attitude to the things you're trying to remember? That could be a clue to the cause.

For the sense of self, specific details are helpful if you can give them. Then I can suggest some questions to ask. I'll write more in about three hours.


Steve

[blackh]

Hi again Patrick,

...further to previous post:

On pronouns: I'm speaking normally, but of course saying I and you, I don't mean to imply any identification with a centralized, managing entity. :)

When the sense of self arises, just noticing it is certainly fine, but at this stage looking deeper would be important. Basically the object is to use your skills of looking in direct experience to see what is behind it. It's the seeing that does the actual work.

There is probably some deconstruction I can help you with, but I need material to work with, so please write a bit about what's going on.


Steve

[Gilford]

There is probably some deconstruction I can help you with, but I need material to work with, so please write a bit about what's going on.

You mentioned in a previous message that i should bring up a situation where the sense of self / strong emotions arise. I can give you an example of this now because i have been dealing with a particular situation the past couple of days. Work is one of my biggest attachments. I pride myself on being a good, hard working, competent employee. When this is called into question, i can get very defensive.

Without going into too much detail, a client was complaining to my boss that i didn't disclose certain information to him. I had actually warned his subordinate about this very thing on a number of occasions but i guess the client forgot or his subordinate didn't let him know. I went home from work Friday knowing that my client was ignorant of this and was still angry with me.

Over the weekend, thoughts came up over and over again about how i should have told my client this or that i should tell him this on Monday. I couldn't have him thinking that i was incompetent. Especially after working so hard to get to where i am. I see how strong the sense of self was at this time. So many emotions came up, mainly fear. Fear of what other people think of me. I can't have them thinking i am bad at my job. Fear of what will happen to me if the client leaves our company. Fear of failure.

Of course this was also a good opportunity to get a sense of the false self and see just how it can dominate so easily. I watched as thought arose and then the sensation of panic in my gut came. Or sometimes, it almost felt like the sensation came first and then the image / thought. I watched and could see that it was just thoughts and sensations and that the mind was labelling these sensations as emotions. I looked for the one that was stressed but i couldn't find anyone. The mind wanted to play out the conversation i was going to have with my client, over and over again.

Emotions seem to feel the strongest when there is a fear of losing something. As i wrote that last sentence, it felt like there was a big insight about to happen. Something was on the tip of my tongue. Then it drifted away and i was just left with confusion.

[blackh]

Patrick,

Thanks for describing the issues you've been having. I think everyone has suffered a situation like it. I have many times, and work has been a big source of fear for me in the past. According to certain models of awakening, this is not expected to stop completely at the gate, but it should lessen. My experience agrees with this. Now this kind of thing is not a problem for me any more but it has taken quite a while after the gate for this to happen.

Now bring up your fear of what might happen at work.

Fear is a protective mechanism. It's your friend. Start by thanking the fear for protecting you. Welcome it. Honour it. This is a very important step! Always do this when dealing with fear.

Pushing fear away doesn't work, so don't try. Fear consists of a body sensation and a story. Focus on the body sensations and let the story play out as it will. You should notice the fear start to dissolve.

Is the sensation itself a problem? Can you accept and allow it?

What is fear itself?
What is it protecting?
What needs to be protected?
What is that feels threatened?

Ask it to reveal why it’s here, what it is trying to tell you, ask the fear to share its wisdom.

Let me know how you got on.

---
Don't worry too much about insights slipping away. This stuff happens at a deep level and the mind is usually the last to catch on.


Steve

[Gilford]

Is the sensation itself a problem? Can you accept and allow it?

No the sensations are not a problem. And once seen as just sensations, they subside. Yes i can allow these sensations. They are harmless.

What is fear itself?
What is it protecting?
What needs to be protected?
What is that feels threatened?

Fear protects the body from a survival point of view. But fear also protects the self. And fear creates the self. Fear is just a thought about the future. A negative story. It is about real things but the story itself isn't real.

So it is the self that says it needs protecting. But it doesn't need protecting. There is no one there that needs protecting.

[blackh]

Hi Patrick,

Regarding the forgetfulness... Some people report periods of forgetfulness but it's usually after the gate.

But fear also protects the self. And fear creates the self. Fear is just a thought about the future. A negative story. It is about real things but the story itself isn't real.

Great work. The mind fixates because of what it believes. That belief can only change through persistent seeing of what is there.

So let's break this scenario down a little more...

Let's say you're at home and you're thinking about this issue. Look at the actual experience. Your home environment is present in the 5 senses. There are body sensations, and there are thoughts.

Rhetorical question: Where is the self in that moment?

Can anything outside the present moment be experienced as real?

Thought content comes in huge variety - some very subtle - and a lot of it looks real. Thoughts claim all sorts of stuff to be true. Spend a bit if time and notice that they often make claims about other thoughts. Tell me what you observe.

What can a thought do? Does it have volition - the power to think and act?


Steve

[Gilford]

Hi Steve,

I apologize in advance but my response tonight might be a little rushed. Had to do some overtime in work this evening and will have to do even more tomorrow evening. But, i'm hoping that it will free me up for the long weekend.

Can anything outside the present moment be experienced as real?

No. The past is just made up memories, which are thoughts about the past. Likewise, the future can only be experienced as thoughts. The present moment is all there is. Really, the self is just made up of millions of thoughts. But only one thought can be experienced at a time.

Thought content comes in huge variety - some very subtle - and a lot of it looks real. Thoughts claim all sorts of stuff to be true. Spend a bit if time and notice that they often make claims about other thoughts. Tell me what you observe.

I want to spend more time on this so i can respond to you properly. I would say that thought definitely makes claims about other thoughts. A thought can very quickly snowball and lead to very strong emotions. Often the previous thought is influencing the next thought. Thoughts also label other thoughts as good, bad. Thoughts even question other thoughts.

What can a thought do? Does it have volition - the power to think and act?

No, i don't believe a thought has volition. I believe that thoughts influence other thoughts and actions. I've wondered before if a thought can know or if it has intelligence. It appears intelligent and it comes from intelligence. It labels objects. Does that mean it knows them? If a thought says that the grass is green, then does it know that the grass is green? If not, then what else knows? There is knowledge of the grass being green but without thought, how can that be known / remembered?

[blackh]

Hi Patrick,

The past is just made up memories, which are thoughts about the past. Likewise, the future can only be experienced as thoughts.

Yes! The only thing that can ever be experienced is this, right here, right now.

Thoughts also label other thoughts as good, bad. Thoughts even question other thoughts.

Yes. Thought constructs a self-contained, self-referencing, self-reinforcing fictional world that most people at least partially confuse for reality. Do you ever feel trapped in that world?

No, i don't believe a thought has volition.

Keep investigating until you have made yourself sure what thoughts are and what they can do.

I believe that thoughts influence other thoughts and actions.

Yes.

I've wondered before if a thought can know or if it has intelligence. It appears intelligent and it comes from intelligence.

Certainly. But we only need to know enough about the nature of thought to answer the central question. Is there a real "you" anywhere amongst it? An autonomous entity with free will - a manager and owner of life - a doer, a thinker, etc.

Another way to ask it: Does the nature of thought give it the power to give rise to a real "you"?

It labels objects. Does that mean it knows them? If a thought says that the grass is green, then does it know that the grass is green?

This is a question for you to answer. I could put a different way: Does thought in any way know the reality of the things it refers to?

If not, then what else knows? There is knowledge of the grass being green but without thought, how can that be known / remembered?

In this inquiry we are dealing with things beyond thought. Thought can't go beyond thought, but there is one thing that can: Looking in direct experience. While your questions are valid, their potential answers take us beyond words fairly quickly. This inquiry can be approached using only things you can see directly without special effort.

So I suggest you try to answer them (and, indeed, any question) by looking in experience, and if you can't find the answer, then take the answer as "unanswerable - at least for now".


Steve

[Gilford]

It labels objects. Does that mean it knows them? If a thought says that the grass is green, then does it know that the grass is green?

This is a question for you to answer. I could put a different way: Does thought in any way know the reality of the things it refers to?

Hmm, grass isn't actually green. Grass is just grass. Green is just a colour that we assigned the word 'green' to. We've labelled grass as green. The only difference between this thought and another thought is that this one is a common belief. Which means it is just a 'shared thought' among a lot of people. It's not even 'grass'. That's just what we called it.

Do you ever feel trapped in that world?

I used to a lot more than i do now. The self can seem so vast at times. And then a few seconds later, it's nowhere to be found. One moment may seem to be the exact same as the next moment, but when you see how quickly the self changes, you know that this isn't true.

Keep investigating until you have made yourself sure what thoughts are and what they can do.

Like the grass being green, so many of our beliefs are just thoughts that are reaffirmed by other people. Common beliefs feel much stronger, much 'safer'. We've learned these things from other people. We are encouraged to believe what they believe in from an early age. We are told that we are 'good' when we show that we believe in common beliefs. Schools are basically institutions for teaching children to believe in the same things. The same can be said about society and government and religion. I'm not saying this is bad, well it can be. We need to have many common beliefs so that we can function in the world.

I will be working late tonight so i won't be able to reply to you again until tomorrow morning.

[blackh]

Patrick,

I've been working long hours this week too.

What you say is true. Our culture gives us a conceptual framework that is flawed but useful and necessary. That's all good, but the problem comes when it is confused with reality - as our culture also encourages.

Hmm, grass isn't actually green.

Yeah! Thought content isn't reality. It's a story about reality.

Do you ever feel trapped in that world?

I used to a lot more than i do now. The self can seem so vast at times. And then a few seconds later, it's nowhere to be found. One moment may seem to be the exact same as the next moment, but when you see how quickly the self changes, you know that this isn't true.

Does this happen because a thought says, "I am trapped in thought content" (even if it's a feeling rather than being expressed in words)? Or is there something else going on?

Then this would be a thought about thoughts - a claim that "I", "trapped" and "thought content" are real.

If two liars confirm each other's lies, does that make them both truthful?

You must actually see that thought content isn't reality, or this conclusion won't achieve anything. So verify what I say by really looking at what thoughts are.

----

Can you see a thinker of thoughts, or are there only thoughts about such a person?
Can you avoid thinking about a pink rabbit, now that I have said it?
Can you stop a thought in the middle?
Can you predict your next thought?
Can you think no thoughts at all for 10 minutes?
Can you actually control thoughts, or are there only thoughts about such a person?


Steve