Guide request

[SandViking]

Ok, thanks!
That was a tough one, will need some time with this. Send you a better reply here when I'm done ;)

Thanks,
Andy

[s-p-a-c-e]

Ok, thanks!
That was a tough one, will need some time with this. Send you a better reply here when I'm done ;)

Thanks,
Andy

Thank you,
John

[SandViking]

I'm sorry, maybe I ponder this too much, but I can't wrap my head around this, all I end up with is a blank mind.

Thanks
Andy

[s-p-a-c-e]

Hi Andy,

No worries, there are infinite doors to explore, I've counted them. :D

What is it you suppose there is to be sure about?
The same comviction there is about my current view... I know that I am not I, but I have the experience of being an I and I do not do or think in any particular way to acheive this view.
For sure I am attached to my ego, and I want the same sureness that I am not I.

What do you not experience now, that you suppose being sure will bring about?
Nothing really, its more about the intensity of the reality/main focus of things.... I still "live in mye head" so to speach.

What is missing?
Nothing is missing as they say, I just cant make it "click" into my reality - like an incomplete brainwash....
I know all these things, but they are only learned knowledge, not lived knowledge. It's like my "knowledge" is based on theory which has no practical application when it comes down to it, maybe except walking around as a mindless slave...

I am nothing, I can do nothing, even though there are many problems in my life, they are not real because nothing is real, and even though the world comes from me, I can do nothing but accept everything that happens, because I am nobody and I can not do anything..... because nothing is real; nothing happens and nobody are real - yet here we are....

If I believed this was true I would experience it, yet reality shows the oposite.
Yes, we can analyze and say there is no I, but what we get is a theoretical understanding and belief.
Have you tested this out to the fullest?
I mean; You do not exist as a human being, your human being exists in your world, and everything and everyone in that world is you/in your awareness....
If you focus your attention on one of your I's in Australia, you can get to know everything that individual I experiences right here and now. You can take note of some facts, then turn your focus back to the "John" I and check if what you noticed as an Australian I is accurate or just fantasy.

Let's walk another way. Can you see in the writing above, that you have this idea of "I am nobody and I can not do anything" and "You do not exist as a human being" etc. It's a kind of goal to make these ideas a reality. But, as you say, life keeps dragging you back to 'me'. :)

It can be tremendously useful to have a relevant goal or aim. But not one based upon a belief. That would be just brainwashing. And that is slavery to some ideology or other.

To be absolutely clear then, we can say:

- there are times when the everyday experience of life is that I am "me" and I act as such.
- I would prefer to see that I am nobody, then I can escape "me".
- But then I see that 'nobody' is also an idea, and I want to deal with what is, not what I would like it to be. :)
- The fact is that I experience and perceive life (at times) as "me".
- If this "me" is so prevalent, so obvious and true, where is it? Wouldn't it be as plain as day?
- But then maybe this "me" isn't that kind of thing. If I can't find it, it just means I can't find it using certain methods of looking. Doesn't mean its not there.
- So, if I can't get to this simple realisation by the act of not finding it, how else to approach it?

Well...

- What if, instead of looking for "me", you loop back and focus of the looking itself, you can call this 'the one looking' for now, to keep it simple.

Loop back, and focus on the one looking, the same one reading these words right now.

Yes you. You are the one we are hunting down.

Are you ready to be seen?

Explore freely, and share discoveries.

Thank you,
John

[SandViking]

Yes I am ready to be seen! :)

Thanks for clearing this up for me! :)

When I look back at me I get more of the same, ie. nothing; no-thing.
While there is nothing or nobody there; still there is something which I can not describe with words.
It can not be seen, felt or sensed, only "experienced" (if there is such a thing as an experience).

When I start over again, I find that I can only describe what I am not. I can not see my self because everything I see I see in my Self.

Thinking about this; I do not see with my eyes I see with my mind, I don't sens with the senses I sense with my mind, reality is happening in my mind; everything are ideas, only the thinker is real - hence everything is one.
Everything is nothing and nothing is everything - but if this is true; isn't this dualistic? Isn't this a coin with one side "everything" and on the other side "nothing"?

I guess no matter what the question is "nothing" is the correct answer :)

Thanks,
Andy

[s-p-a-c-e]

Yes I am ready to be seen! :)

Thanks for clearing this up for me! :)

When I look back at me I get more of the same, ie. nothing; no-thing.
While there is nothing or nobody there; still there is something which I can not describe with words.
It can not be seen, felt or sensed, only "experienced" (if there is such a thing as an experience).

Ok, hold that 'something'. its important.

When I start over again, I find that I can only describe what I am not. I can not see my self because everything I see I see in my Self.

Thinking about this; I do not see with my eyes I see with my mind, I don't sens with the senses I sense with my mind, reality is happening in my mind; everything are ideas, only the thinker is real - hence everything is one.
Everything is nothing and nothing is everything - but if this is true; isn't this dualistic? Isn't this a coin with one side "everything" and on the other side "nothing"?

Ok, no more logic. Let's us look instead, and not leap to conclusions! :)

When you follow the instruction to 'look at the one looking', you do this in the best way you can, and the experience is such that you describe it as "there is nothing, or nobody there."

At the same time, there is this "something" indescribable, mentioned above.

Here's what we are looking at right now:

The idea that I am this persistent being inside called Andy, who went to school, grew up, and is now inquiring into who he is. That the one reading this IS Andy. The one thinking about this IS Andy. And Andy is me, is who I am.


^ This is the common perception that we are holding up to the light of inquiry.

You have looked and cannot find such a persistent entity called Andy.
You feel this significant 'something'.

What to make of it?

Was 'ANDY' ever there as a real being, a real persistent entity inside you, who you are?


If indeed, you have never been Andy, yet acted as Andy for decades, what does that bring up?

In the space where Andy was, what remains?

Please explore carefully and intently, and share discoveries.

With kind thanks,
John

[SandViking]

Thanks for your reply! :)

Ok, no more logic. Let's us look instead, and not leap to conclusions! :)
Sorry I was unclear about this. I see that it can be taken as I am useing logic here, but I have actually looked and nomatter how many times I look or how I phrase the questions; the answer is always "nothing" and as soon as I put a word to that "nothing" it becomes "something" which it is not.

You have looked and cannot find such a persistent entity called Andy.
You feel this significant 'something'.

What to make of it?
Well... everything is what you make of it, as they say :)
First it is shocking, scary and frustrating, the fealing of beeing cheated is great.... like the fool on the hill....
Then wonder, curiosity, because even though mye idea of who I am is wrong, I still am - but what?
Every word I try putting on this "something" is wrong, the world I thoght was real have no words or ideas about "this".

So asking "who is Andy" or "who am I" is a bit of a "trick-question", because the way the question is phrased it implies that the answer is someone that can be named, as a persona.... No matter what word I use to answer these questions will be wrong.


Was 'ANDY' ever there as a real being, a real persistent entity inside you, who you are?
If you ask my mother and father they would say "yes" because they named me long before I was born.
But we are not asking them tonight.
I was long before I knew a single word. I don't remember anything from that time, but when looking at new borns and very young children; they know no words, no language, no knowledge.
So "I am" before I was named (and identified) with "Andy".

If indeed, you have never been Andy, yet acted as Andy for decades, what does that bring up?
Many different thoughts, feelings and ideas - much like what I wrote in the question "What to make of it?" above.
Feels like I have mistaken my identity almost at birth...

In the space where Andy was, what remains?
Nothing.... void.... peace....scilence.... these words are ment as pointers; not to be taken litterally.
Nothing has really changed, only a recognition that "Andy" is not real. "Andy" has not left the building, but I see him more like a ghost/fiction; not real.

Thank you very much for your help!
Andy

[s-p-a-c-e]

What to make of it?
Well... everything is what you make of it, as they say :)
First it is shocking, scary and frustrating, the fealing of beeing cheated is great.... like the fool on the hill....
Then wonder, curiosity, because even though mye idea of who I am is wrong, I still am - but what?
Every word I try putting on this "something" is wrong, the world I thoght was real have no words or ideas about "this".

Cool. I know its tempting to want to find the answer to 'but what?' :)

At the same time, notice the desire to put the 'but what?' into a box, to name and identify.

Glad you feel cheated. Especially when you've had a much-loved identity swiped from under your nose!

Leaving just a 'something' in shoes reading this. ;)

Was 'ANDY' ever there as a real being, a real persistent entity inside you, who you are?
If you ask my mother and father they would say "yes" because they named me long before I was born.
But we are not asking them tonight.
I was long before I knew a single word. I don't remember anything from that time, but when looking at new borns and very young children; they know no words, no language, no knowledge.
So "I am" before I was named (and identified) with "Andy".

I'll leave the religious ideas to you. :) Let's just keep looking and getting a cleaner and cleaner grasp. Ideas are mind candy.

If indeed, you have never been Andy, yet acted as Andy for decades, what does that bring up?
Many different thoughts, feelings and ideas - much like what I wrote in the question "What to make of it?" above.
Feels like I have mistaken my identity almost at birth...

Good. It's fucked up isn't it, to live as a someone made up. LOL

In the space where Andy was, what remains?
Nothing.... void.... peace....scilence.... these words are ment as pointers; not to be taken litterally.
Nothing has really changed, only a recognition that "Andy" is not real. "Andy" has not left the building, but I see him more like a ghost/fiction; not real.

Excellent. "Andy" as an identified with set of feelings, assumptions etc will fade in experience as you withdraw any need to identify. It simply loses its purpose.

Now, that opens more space.

Sit quietly with what's been shared, and see what shows up.

With best wishes!
John

[SandViking]

Hehehe, yes it's totally fucked up :)
But, so is everything else, so it shouldn't really come as a shock.
Andy is an imposter, like every politican ;)

I do notice a "strugle" in my mind (or is it more accurat to say "in my field of awarenss"? when used as pointers?).
There is a small "voice" wispering "no, it's not true; Andy is real." Then other thoughts pop up; turn on the television, I feel a bit hungry, it's getting lat so maybe its better to go to sleep and deal with this tomorrow, - and so on.

Sitting her many trains loaded with thoughts fly by; when I was a kid I had imaginary friends.... I made "myself" my imaginary self the same way, only difference was I knew my friends was imaginary and I was convinsed I was real! :)
How is this possible?
And why don't we learn about this in school?

I am in this world but not of it, this "reality" is just a different kind of dream than the dream I dream when I sleep.
This view makes more sense than the physical model I learned in school.

I can't think of more questions than the questions I posted above, and these are not important questions so to speach...
It's more; "I" wonder how? "I" wonder why?
Yesterday you told me 'bout the blue-blue sky, but all that I can see; is just another lemon tree.
I'm turning my head up and down
I'm turning turning turning turning turning around
And all that I can see is just another lemon-tree :)
(Just kidding about that last part, but I digg that song so I felt to putting it in :)

But are these questions I wonder about in my dreamless sleep?
Absolutly not :)

I think it's time for me to go to sleep now, but I have written down most of what has come to mind.
"Tomorrow" I'll take another look at what you wrote and what I replied, and fill in anything I might have left out or not aswered.

Many, many, many thanks!
Andy

[s-p-a-c-e]

I do notice a "strugle" in my mind (or is it more accurat to say "in my field of awarenss"? when used as pointers?).
There is a small "voice" wispering "no, it's not true; Andy is real." Then other thoughts pop up; turn on the television, I feel a bit hungry, it's getting lat so maybe its better to go to sleep and deal with this tomorrow, - and so on.

Thoughts are fine. Rainfall is fine. If you wish, sit on a cushion and try not to think. :) But its really not necessary. Humans think. Its kinda what we do. :D Well, some of the time.

What is happening is you are seeing that thoughts are no longer "Andy's thoughts" containing "Andy's concerns and dreams."
Hey, its a lovely story, but a dream all the same.

I am in this world but not of it, this "reality" is just a different kind of dream than the dream I dream when I sleep.
This view makes more sense than the physical model I learned in school.

Again :) these are ideas about life, which are fine, but we would be falling down the same hole repeatedly, if we started to take a different set of ideas for 'how it really is'.

I can't think of more questions than the questions I posted above, and these are not important questions so to speach...
It's more; "I" wonder how? "I" wonder why?
Yesterday you told me 'bout the blue-blue sky, but all that I can see; is just another lemon tree.
I'm turning my head up and down
I'm turning turning turning turning turning around
And all that I can see is just another lemon-tree :)
(Just kidding about that last part, but I digg that song so I felt to putting it in :)

But are these questions I wonder about in my dreamless sleep?
Absolutly not :)

I think it's time for me to go to sleep now, but I have written down most of what has come to mind.
"Tomorrow" I'll take another look at what you wrote and what I replied, and fill in anything I might have left out or not aswered.

Cool. Look forward to it. :)

Takk,
John

[SandViking]

Thanks for your reply! :)

Am I a human being now? hehe
You say thinking is what humans do, but I am not the label human :)
Having a human experience yes, but I am beyond my experience -at least occationally ;) :D

The problem I have is with words, consepts, ideas - I can not communicate without them and yet they are not accurate.

Everything I experience is a dream; no matter what I observe is part of a dream called "sleep" or a dream called "reality".
For sure this is just ideas of 'how it really is', but I do need this in order to make sense of things.
Its not about changeing 'how it really is' as often as you change your pants, but it is a natural consecvense of changeing the perception of "I". Following your argument I am not supposed to change my view of "I" simply because its just a different set of ideas I have about myself?

Since we are talking about a different view of "I" here, I doubt that I am not supposed to follow that argument and stop watching my "I", so then I think you're out fishing for a particular answer; that you give me these hints which I am supposed to see and answer something different than what I have done.
If so, please be aware that I do not take hints very well, and since this is called "Direct pointing" I expect everything to be direct :)

So in my direct experience of me I experience what feels like 2 different I's: One who is in this world and of this world, and one who is in this world but not of this world. To experience I as the latter takes focus, effort and intention, to experience the former happens automatically.

If I am going to continue to look at the world as the reality I've learned and call 'reality' - I should go to the doctor and seek medical help, this is considered crazy; schitzomaniac I think its called.
But if I look at my experiences and include the sleeping aspekt of my life, then I see that it is the same consciousness that is experiencing both dreaming and awake - the only difference is the focus.
Where does the dream end and reality begin?
But if I take this view, that this is 'how it really is' then it makes more sense and the need for a medical doctor goes away.
If I suffer from mistaken identity, isn't it also possible that I also suffer from mistaken realityview? ;)

When I look into myself, into reality or anything else; it always ends in nothing.
This is not a jump to conclusions; I have looked.
But if you think I'm mistaken; can you think of anything that doesn't end up being nothing in the final analyzis?
If you do, please share :)

Many thanks!
Andy

[s-p-a-c-e]

Am I a human being now? hehe
You say thinking is what humans do, but I am not the label human :)
Having a human experience yes, but I am beyond my experience -at least occationally ;) :D

If you must. :)

Everything I experience is a dream; no matter what I observe is part of a dream called "sleep" or a dream called "reality".
Since we are talking about a different view of "I" here, I doubt that I am not supposed to follow that argument and stop watching my "I", so then I think you're out fishing for a particular answer; that you give me these hints which I am supposed to see and answer something different than what I have done.
If so, please be aware that I do not take hints very well, and since this is called "Direct pointing" I expect everything to be direct :)

I don't do fishing. :) And certainly not looking for particular answers. God forbid.

So in my direct experience of me I experience what feels like 2 different I's: One who is in this world and of this world, and one who is in this world but not of this world. To experience I as the latter takes focus, effort and intention, to experience the former happens automatically.

What you believe in the privacy of your home is your business. :D

If I am going to continue to look at the world as the reality I've learned and call 'reality' - I should go to the doctor and seek medical help, this is considered crazy; schitzomaniac I think its called.
But if I look at my experiences and include the sleeping aspekt of my life, then I see that it is the same consciousness that is experiencing both dreaming and awake - the only difference is the focus.
Where does the dream end and reality begin?
But if I take this view, that this is 'how it really is' then it makes more sense and the need for a medical doctor goes away.
If I suffer from mistaken identity, isn't it also possible that I also suffer from mistaken realityview? ;)

I have no interest in such mind games, but feel free to enjoy.

When I look into myself, into reality or anything else; it always ends in nothing.
This is not a jump to conclusions; I have looked.
But if you think I'm mistaken; can you think of anything that doesn't end up being nothing in the final analyzis?
If you do, please share :)

By 'nothing', do you mean there was no recognisable form at the time you looked?
Ah, the 'final analysis', when its all wrapped up in a ribbon and we can go home.

Our focus here is quite mundane, to see - beyond any shadow of a doubt - whether 'Andy' is a persistent being/entity/self or not.

Let's get that out of the way before discussing metaphysics. :)

[SandViking]

Goodie, we're on the same page then :)

By 'nothing', do you mean there was no recognisable form at the time you looked?
Yes: No form, no thing, no thought.

Ah, the 'final analysis', when its all wrapped up in a ribbon and we can go home.
No, no wrapping and no ribbon and no home to go home to - when you realize a thing for what it really is -thats the final analysis. :)

Our focus here is quite mundane, to see - beyond any shadow of a doubt - whether 'Andy' is a persistent being/entity/self or not.
The problem with this is in the direct experience of an ordinary day:
I know Andy is a name that points to "me" which again points to the "life" or "presense" which is a reflection of my true identity. What I now call I is prior to "presens"/"life", ideas, words, consepts, pictures, and so on and so forth.
However, when I wake up in the morning I still feel like Andy, and in order to see the other "me" I need to consciously change my focus and way of thinking. As long as this is so there is no doubt I am Andy, for sure; that's my experience, what feels natural to me. It is not until I start to question my assumptions that I start doubting "Andys" existense.
As long as this is so, this is all a "mindgame"; some theories; thoughts and ideas whose experience in the "real" world" is the oposite, until I decide to look differently.

I don't know if it is realistic or unrealistic to think that you can help me make the latter experience the "default" that I wake up with in the morning, but I assume you can and believe you can be of help, which is why I try to share as much "mental info" (or luggage if you will) as possible without being to long.

Thank you very much!
Andy

[s-p-a-c-e]

Our focus here is quite mundane, to see - beyond any shadow of a doubt - whether 'Andy' is a persistent being/entity/self or not.
The problem with this is in the direct experience of an ordinary day:
I know Andy is a name that points to "me" which again points to the "life" or "presense" which is a reflection of my true identity. What I now call I is prior to "presens"/"life", ideas, words, consepts, pictures, and so on and so forth.

However, when I wake up in the morning I still feel like Andy, and in order to see the other "me" I need to consciously change my focus and way of thinking. As long as this is so there is no doubt I am Andy, for sure; that's my experience, what feels natural to me. It is not until I start to question my assumptions that I start doubting "Andys" existense.
As long as this is so, this is all a "mindgame"; some theories; thoughts and ideas whose experience in the "real" world" is the oposite, until I decide to look differently.

I don't know if it is realistic or unrealistic to think that you can help me make the latter experience the "default" that I wake up with in the morning, but I assume you can and believe you can be of help, which is why I try to share as much "mental info" (or luggage if you will) as possible without being to long.

What you have going here is a proxy-Andy.

To review:
You have seen - pretty much - that 'Andy' is made up.

You enjoy a kind of detached objective awareness which you like to call a 'true identity' prior to life (probably watching too much Rupert Spira) :)

When you wake up, you still feel like 'Andy' until you shake it off :) - this is the proxy-Andy. Basically like an habitual echo. Of course, its quite nice to have our cake and eat it. To be an enlightened Andy seeing through 'Andy', and there's always the objective awareness to enjoy and revel in.

We get to SEE and be the one SEEING.

Andy is gone as a real being. Of course, he never was in the first place, so why do you hang on to 'him'?

Has it landed that Andy is truly no more, zip, gone as who you are?

Let's say it did, let's say you fully entertained the possibility that Andy's time has gone.
Sit with it, and its felt implications.

Forget the 'true identity' for now. See the death of 'Andy' for what it is. The death of someone that never lived.

Takk,
John

[SandViking]

Thanks for your reply! :)

I haven't read any Rupert Spira yet ;)

When you wake up, you still feel like 'Andy' until you shake it off :) - this is the proxy-Andy. Basically like an habitual echo. Of course, its quite nice to have our cake and eat it. To be an enlightened Andy seeing through 'Andy', and there's always the objective awareness to enjoy and revel in.

We get to SEE and be the one SEEING.
A-ha! Thank you, this made something "click"! :)

Andy is gone as a real being. Of course, he never was in the first place, so why do you hang on to 'him'?
Habbit I guess... It's not like I hang on to him on pupose; it just happens...

Has it landed that Andy is truly no more, zip, gone as who you are?
Yes. Andy is a name, pointing to a persona that can not be found anywhere. This persona is made up of a bunch of ideas, which again can be devided into different categories and so on and so fort.
I am nobody.

Let's say it did, let's say you fully entertained the possibility that Andy's time has gone.
Sit with it, and its felt implications.

Forget the 'true identity' for now. See the death of 'Andy' for what it is. The death of someone that never lived.

If Andy never Lived, Andy can not die, so I do not feel that I am a murder to blame for Andys dissapearancec ;)
The imposter has been detected and is now gone, he left as soon as I tried to look at him; one moment he was here, the next gone without a trace.

When I look for implications I end up in scilence...
What does this mean? (scilence, nothing)
What should I do now? (scilence, nothing)
Andy is gone, who or what remains? (scilence, nothing)
How am I supposed to live my life? (scilence, nothing)
How do I know it's not Andy asking these questions and/or blocking the answers? (scilence, nothing)

If I was to guess I'd say Andy is playing pretend here....
All I really get is "Andy is gone, so what? Life goes on so who cares?"

To try to sum it all up I'd say; I get it but I don't see it, or I see it but I don't get it...
Still my "experience of mySelf" only last for a few seconds at a time, after that Andy kicks back in.

Thank you very much!
Andy