Looking for a guide

[Rudra]

Hey
I need one more day to have a clear look at all of this
Thanks !!
Manou

[Ilona]

no worries, write when you are ready
:)

[Rudra]

So... hard work :).

What I observe is that there is a flow of barely conscious thoughts and the fear points at that.

The thoughts are mostly about control / consequences and Me Me Me. For the moment, I still miss them very often, then fear rises as an alarm or a response that brings back attention to "now". Sort of.

Also, this process drives me to extreme states, like extreme fear, extreme anger, extreme désespoir (with suicidal tendencies). I see that, in a way, it means this is the right direction.

I start with this to continue my inquiries.

I went back to a practice I learned : to label thoughts when they arise as "thoughts", it gives me more chances not to miss them. I know nobody is labeling, I know it's just a pointing practice. What do you think ? (It is from Vipassana Satipatana, from Mahasi Sayadaw).

So, I think I was bullshitting myself, at list partly. "Me" pretending not to see myself. It was this "Me" hidden in this background flow of thoughts that was imagining it is inquiring for itself... ah ah ah what a mess.

Is there a feeler of fear?
Is there a perceiver of sensation?
What do you find?

I'm not fully sure because of those background thoughts. I start to wonder if I haven't been persuading me that my "personal self" thoughts are far away, but they might just be the background thoughts, like pushed away.

But, probably, both truth are true ;). Those background thoughts are the deeper "Me" beliefs". But sometimes they are not in function. For example, when I'm driving or when I'm walking. If thoughts are diligently observed as thoughts, then it's clear that there's nobody doing or taking the decision to do or observing the action. It is just the action doing itself. Also, clear joy, joy without a cause appears sometimes at this moment.

Ps. Direct experience is simply what is happening here and now, always. Just that. There is nothing to fear in the moment, or is there?

What I fear are the consequences of being freely, but those consequences only exist in thoughts :)

[Ilona]

Thank you!
It's great to hear that you are having spontaneous moments of joy! Yey!
And yes, you are right, all those intense states and emotions are part of this process.

You say that there is fear of consequences of being free, what would these concequencies be?
What would be lost?

Sending love

[Rudra]

It's quite simple, I'm afraid to become totally fucked up and lose sanity, because confusion comes very fast when I dive in pure experience because many things come : strong sensations, I see raining light, etc...

[Ilona]

I'm afraid to become totally fucked up and lose sanity

i know that fear! so what would it be that would go insane? if there really is no i/separate entity, then what would change? all is running already as it always was. it's not that once the no self is realized, there is a loss of control. it's just that there is no more assumption, that there ever was a controller.
just like if you stop imagining that you are driving a rollecoaster car, the car keeps going.. see?

is anything wrong with strong sensations? is intensity something that should not be happening?
have a look there.

best wishes

[Rudra]

is anything wrong with strong sensations? is intensity something that should not be happening?
have a look there.

This has been very useful, thanks.

Also I answer late as I forgot for some days that I was in this process (impressive how resistance can work).

It is clear that all of this points to the beliefs that are still strong, where the "I" is still believed in. Of course the only one suffering from realizing there is no control is the concept of I.

I go to an Iboga ceremony tomorrow so I won't be able to answer until Monday. I realize I was a bit out of direct experience for the last 3/4 days. But it's ok, it's how it was. It's good to go back now.

Also what happened is that the work we have done has liberated some positive aspects of this body-mind and "I" liked those aspects, creating new stories around them.

I guess it's a natural process until no more stories are created as they are immediately seen for being useless.

[Ilona]

wish you have a good ceremony!
how is it going?

Of course the only one suffering from realizing there is no control is the concept of I.

can a concept suffer? can a concept have or not have control over anything? what is actually going on here?

write more about this.

sending love

[Rudra]

Hi, sorry for the delay, it was quite a mess in here :). My first answer would have been to throw my computer out of the window :).

Yes, the ceremony went well. I'm still digesting the effects. What is interesting is that the big fear I was facing is gone. Mostly because I could see what was behind (that was my intention). What I found is a package of thoughts, beliefs and emotions that I didn't want to admit were also existing in this body-mind.

So, it's lighter that way even though I perceive more thoughts and it is very messy sometimes.

Therefore, I've been able to observe a bit more clearly what happens when suffering rises. Suffering is more like a loop of thoughts that creates a crazy tension in the body. So, no concept is suffering, concept can't have control or lose control. It's just another thought that enforce the looping system. And suffering is just more thoughts with a lot of focus on them. That's all. The suffering solves itself at some point, because attention goes away. Direct experience helps in the sense that it's known there's nothing to do and there's nothing really happening.

When tension is at its highest,direct experience can be forgotten, then it comes back.

[Rudra]

So, I continue the work here.

Iboga did a good job in it's on way because it clarified an inner conflict that was blocking the process we're doing here.

Something is dropping. Like a tension about having to deal with this life. So, life continues, by itself, and more and more it's very easy not to care about thoughts are they are seen to be irrelevant.

Nothing to achieve, nothing to do, no goal. Existence just goes on, gently or not :).

I understand better why it's called liberation, because everything is lighter.

I guess I had a huge idea that liberation had to do with being a good person and I was rejecting some very dark aspect of this body-mind. But it's not, even if it might be a byproduct after sometime. So, facing and accepting all the very bad aspects of this body-mind was more than necessary to fulfill the process.

[Ilona]

Great! Existence just is, yes! And all good, bad and the ugly are mind judgements about it, but IS does not care!

What is that gets liberated and from what?
What makes a person to be one way or another?
Is there a person without a story?


Sending love


Ps. I'm away at the moment so I mint be able to answer often.

[Rudra]

What is that gets liberated and from what?

Nothing is liberated. It's more like getting some weird glasses away. Experience is no more filtered by the glasses. That's all. There is a sense of lightness but even that is just another experience that will vanish.

What makes a person to be one way or another?

I don't know. Beliefs ? Tendencies ? Life ? I would say, once beliefs are seen through, what are left are just tendencies, that it's just the way it is, as wood is wood, rock is rock, one might be more like this and the other one more like that.

Is there a person without a story?

No, it is very clear for me to see that the belief in the story is creating the sense of a person. That's all, thinking there is a person is just a wrong observation of what's really happening. A story rises about a subject, attention get cought in the story and the story is fueled by attention. The fuel gives the feeling that there is somebody actually living the story. But when the story is seen for what it is, just thoughts, then it is seen there was nobody to begin with.

I guess that the more attention gets away from stories the less they will rise.

Also I must say that some experience I had triggered the fear again and the whole story of Me (yeah, it's about women ah ah ah). I know it's in the process of this body-mind structure, until all beliefs and stories are seen through. It's a bit easier this time as it is known that it's just another story.

[Ilona]

Nothing is liberated. It's more like getting some weird glasses away. Experience is no more filtered by the glasses. That's all. There is a sense of lightness but even that is just another experience that will vanish.

awesome! that's how i would describe it too!
has anything changed in your normal every day experience of living? are there any doubts? is the illusion of i entity has been seen through? if not, is anything else there that we can look at?

much love your way!

[Rudra]

A little story told to me during the Iboga ceremony (reading your blog I guess you'll understand) :

While I was under Iboga's influence, I asked to see behind the fear. What it showed me is that I was afraid to face a part of me that was judged unworthy, violent and negative. The story is that I died once when I was five and the previous incarnation was really not a nice guy. A new soul came in but the old one didn't want to leave. So the two souls ended up in the same body, fighting to control this life. The job of this incarnation is to get the "nice" soul to love and teach love to the dark one (I know it sounds like a very simple fact of accepting one's dark sides. I assure you it's closer to schizophrenia in the way I experience it).

So, what has changed :
- After Iboga, communication between all aspects of the mind (between the two souls) is back to function.
- So, it is known there is no self in charge.
- The intense sensations don't trigger anymore fear. In fact, it's like life loving life or like being under Iboga but while awake. Like if being alive is being full of love. Not love for something, just an immense void of love.
- Sometimes I see everybody as aspects of me.
- Motivation to do things changes. It's less and less about me, only about what's has to be done. Result is not anymore important.
- But !!!! in the same time, when the other soul/mind is triggered (if I am exhausted or emotionally challenged in a violent way) all of this might be forgotten (like, really forgotten, very strange. Like if all my inner work was a fairy tale). Then the "wise" soul seems to be only a distant voice in the background and it's sometimes difficult to hear it. But it's ok because there is no more fighting or judging. And the end of fighting means it is seen for what it is each time. I guess a non-dual explanation instead of souls would be that a complex programming is being resolved by itself. I can see nobody does anything, the experience happens again and again until all aspects of it come to light. What has to be done is done naturally. Decisions are taken naturally. And when it's messy inside, it's ok, it's just an experience of messy :).

[Ilona]

Beautiful, this rings true and clear.

it's ok because there is no more fighting or judging. And the end of fighting means it is seen for what it is each time. I guess a non-dual explanation instead of souls would be that a complex programming is being resolved by itself. I can see nobody does anything, the experience happens again and again until all aspects of it come to light. What has to be done is done naturally. Decisions are taken naturally. And when it's messy inside, it's ok, it's just an experience of messy :)

yes, all those patterns that are still running unconsciously are going to come up to be seen. that's what I call a clean up process, there is much to clear after the initial seeing. This sometimes is effortless, but it can require work too. And all is accepted.

can you say with a big fat YES, that it's clear that i/me is not what it seems, not an entity in charge, that has a free and is driving the body?
are you ready for the final questions?

sending love