Per aspera ad astra

[JonathanR]

Hi Agata,

How is it going?

I also meant to say that seeing no self is in many ways a beginning rather than an end. It can be the begining of many unqiestioned assumptions and beliefs falling away. This may very well take time and meditation can help a lot.

I found tha meditation changed too. Before 'no self' there had always been a perception of a 'me' that 'does' the meditation. Nowadays in many ways it simply happens
No doer


Love

Jon

[Aspera]

Hi Jon

Sorry for the really slow response, having one of those weeks when everything is going wrong.

Can you say more about this jigsaw? What is it?
I understand what you mean about realizing that negative patterns are myths. And meditation can allow for some sustained focus, though it seems not everyone feels the need for it. Myths and negative patterns go on getting seen somehow anyway once 'self'is seen through.

By jigsaw i mean incorporating the seeing of no self into daily life and living this new found discovery. Maybe this seeing is only gradually unfolding and when its has truly happened I wont feel a need for guidance how to live this truth. Its what you are saying in the second message -seeing no self is only the beginning and there is an ongoing process of shedding the illusory 'I'. When unexpected stuff hits you like my car insurance unexpectedly sky rocketed as i changed addresses and I am facing with the fact that i might not be able to afford the car and potentially rethink my whole lifestyle. It was impossible not to identify with the 'i'. I would like to learn to integrate what i know and apply in the situations where i go into panic mode.When you say that mediation simply happens, do you mean its your usual state you are in? Or do you still need to go and sit somewhere quiet?

Just returning to 'body' for a moment, If you explore actual experience of 'body' in any moment, any immediate sensations, would you say that 'the body' is a thought-label for kinesthetic or sense experience? Does 'a body exist' in the abstract?

Would you say that the kinesthetic experience, the sensations are what is actually happening when we speak of ' body'?

Yes, I can agree to what you are saying about the body being a thought label for sense experience. Part of me still feels slightly doubtful of this statement, but when exploring the direct experience- there is a sense of the breath, air around me, the sense of the weight, sense of 'the body' being located in the middle of the room and we attribute this experience to 'the body'

Love

Agata

[JonathanR]

Hi Agata,

Sorry for the really slow response, having one of those weeks when everything is going wrong

No problem.

When unexpected stuff hits you like my car insurance unexpectedly sky rocketed as i changed addresses and I am facing with the fact that i might not be able to afford the car and potentially rethink my whole lifestyle. It was impossible not to identify with the 'i'.

That's really annoying about your insurance!

Yes, there is a reaction. Maybe anger or dismay. The primary emotion may be a sensation of wanting events to be different? The sheer force of reaction brings with it a seemingly irrefutable identification with a 'me', as you suggest. Yes, for a while it seems impossible not to identify with an 'I'. That is the way things happen. There has been a long assumption that 'I am here'.

But ask yourself this, does the apparent and temporary appearance of 'me', however much there is identification , however annoyed 'me' seems to get, create a real entity? Could it, ever?

If a film is watched and there is identification with the joys and ordeals of the main character, is there ever confusion that the character on the screen is a living breathing person rather than coloured light moving on a cinema screen?

Do you imagine that identification is a problem?

. When you say that mediation simply happens, do you mean its your usual state you are in? Or do you still need to go and sit somewhere quiet?

Well, my whole understanding of what meditation is changed. Up until the Gate my view was that 'I' had to 'make meditation happen'. There was an idea of a self that had to exert effort by practising.There was an idea that an 'me' would benefit. At the gate my understanding shifted. At first I would still 'try' to meditate. There was an idea that someone needed to meditate. But two things happened.

It became clear that without the false idea of self as the one that 'does' it, meditation became more a case of simply noticing whatever is already going on in immediate experience. Secondly, the notion that meditation only happens on a quiet, solitary place dissolved,as ordinary experience of working or communicating became fascinating opportunities for noticing what is really happening in any moment. Even really challenging things like arguments became perfect opportunities to notice.

. Part of me still feels slightly doubtful of this statement

That's what I'm here to assist with. Please take a little time to write down exactly what that doubt amounts to, what it is in what I said that you can't quite accept? Don't hold back, even if the doubt seems silly or not very big.

Thank you.

Love

Jon

[Aspera]

Hi Jon

The primary emotion may be a sensation of wanting events to be different?

That is very true and that thought + accompanied emotion of wanting things to go different creates tension. And then the thoughts flood in 'if i had done this and the other' I could have avoided this situation, and feeling of regret shows up and so on..

But ask yourself this, does the apparent and temporary appearance of 'me', however much there is identification , however annoyed 'me' seems to get, create a real entity? Could it, ever?

Yes, no matter how caught up the 'i' is, what is unchanging remains unchanged. No amount of arguments, troubles, situations you think there are no solutions to, can scar that what is not there. During this exploration process there has been quite a few lows and subsequent ups in terms of what's going on externally. And that will always be the case. And I guess emotionally we are following those external ups and downs, but recognizing that that is part of life, recognizing that emotions will come and go will create more ease in handling life.

If a film is watched and there is identification with the joys and ordeals of the main character, is there ever confusion that the character on the screen is a living breathing person rather than coloured light moving on a cinema screen?

Do you imagine that identification is a problem?

I guess we know that we are watching a film and thus the character can never be a real person. However, when the plot is gripping and emotions are strong, we may temporary forget about it all being just a movie and feel like a character is a real person and cry/laugh/feel upset as a result of what's going on with the character. Identification with the character, with the 'i' is definitely a problem and causes a lot of suffering.

That's what I'm here to assist with. Please take a little time to write down exactly what that doubt amounts to, what it is in what I said that you can't quite accept? Don't hold back, even if the doubt seems silly or not very big.

Well, I think there is quite a lot of pain and suffering involved around the’ body’ and big part of me doesn't feel like accepting it just as a though label. Since I have been a teenager I developed quite a strong scoliosis in my back and it has really affected my energy levels , the pain I experience, the lifestyle I can lead (I can not play tennis, run etc) and I have to see manual therapist on regular basis. There is another condition I don’t feel comfortable sharing which also has been limiting me. So it feels to me that my body is something which is restraining me and I don’t feel comfortable with.
Love
Agata

[JonathanR]

Hi Agata,

That is very true and that thought + accompanied emotion of wanting things to go different creates tension. And then the thoughts flood in 'if i had done this and the other' I could have avoided this situation, and feeling of regret shows up and so on..

It seems an irony that the impulse is to push such experience away but can the entity to whom all this is happening even be found?

Yes, no matter how caught up the 'i' is, what is unchanging remains unchanged. No amount of arguments, troubles, situations you think there are no solutions to, can scar that what is not there. During this exploration process there has been quite a few lows and subsequent ups in terms of what's going on externally. And that will always be the case. And I guess emotionally we are following those external ups and downs, but recognizing that that is part of life, recognizing that emotions will come and go will create more ease in handling life.

Yes I am sure you are right Agata. A bit like a roller coaster. maybe? Anyway, as you say, nothing that is not there can be scarred and there is room for enjoying the ride :-)

I guess we know that we are watching a film and thus the character can never be a real person. However, when the plot is gripping and emotions are strong, we may temporary forget about it all being just a movie and feel like a character is a real person and cry/laugh/feel upset as a result of what's going on with the character. Identification with the character, with the 'i' is definitely a problem and causes a lot of suffering.

And it does happen. This identification, quite a bit. Clearly whilst it is going on there is the reappearance of a imagined self that seems to be able to 'suffer', to feel attraction and revulsion, to fear.

Is there any control over when this identification happens?

Is there any control, do you find, over the moment that re-awakening (to seeing that there is no self) happens?

Is there one that 'goes to sleep' then? Is there one that 'wakes up' again? Or do these phases both just happen?

Well, I think there is quite a lot of pain and suffering involved around the’ body’ and big part of me doesn't feel like accepting it just as a though label. Since I have been a teenager I developed quite a strong scoliosis in my back and it has really affected my energy levels , the pain I experience, the lifestyle I can lead (I can not play tennis, run etc) and I have to see manual therapist on regular basis. There is another condition I don’t feel comfortable sharing which also has been limiting me. So it feels to me that my body is something which is restraining me and I don’t feel comfortable with.

I completely understand the way you feel about this. I have a chronic illness myself and know all about the thought=feeling that 'this is limiting'. On the other hand it is possible to see the raw sensations of pain-in-stomach and whilst this is not 'me' and not 'mine' it is still part of life.

Look for the owner of the sensations. Agata I'm not suggesting this is very easy but if there can be focus on looking directly at the pain without backing away from it or feeling tense about it this can help a lot.

love,

Jon

[JonathanR]

Hi Agata,

That is very true and that thought + accompanied emotion of wanting things to go different creates tension. And then the thoughts flood in 'if i had done this and the other' I could have avoided this situation, and feeling of regret shows up and so on..

It seems an irony that the impulse is to push such experience away but can the entity to whom all this is happening even be found?

Yes, no matter how caught up the 'i' is, what is unchanging remains unchanged. No amount of arguments, troubles, situations you think there are no solutions to, can scar that what is not there. During this exploration process there has been quite a few lows and subsequent ups in terms of what's going on externally. And that will always be the case. And I guess emotionally we are following those external ups and downs, but recognizing that that is part of life, recognizing that emotions will come and go will create more ease in handling life.

Yes I am sure you are right Agata. A bit like a roller-coaster. maybe? Anyway, as you say, nothing that is not there can be scarred and there is room for enjoying the ride :-)

I guess we know that we are watching a film and thus the character can never be a real person. However, when the plot is gripping and emotions are strong, we may temporary forget about it all being just a movie and feel like a character is a real person and cry/laugh/feel upset as a result of what's going on with the character. Identification with the character, with the 'i' is definitely a problem and causes a lot of suffering.

And it does happen. This identification, quite a bit. Clearly whilst it is going on there is the reappearance of a imagined self that seems to be able to 'suffer', to feel attraction and revulsion, to fear.

Is there any control over when this identification happens?

Is there any control, do you find, over the moment that re-awakening (to seeing that there is no self) happens?

Is there one that 'goes to sleep' then? Is there one that 'wakes up' again? Or do these phases both just happen?

Well, I think there is quite a lot of pain and suffering involved around the’ body’ and big part of me doesn't feel like accepting it just as a though label. Since I have been a teenager I developed quite a strong scoliosis in my back and it has really affected my energy levels , the pain I experience, the lifestyle I can lead (I can not play tennis, run etc) and I have to see manual therapist on regular basis. There is another condition I don’t feel comfortable sharing which also has been limiting me. So it feels to me that my body is something which is restraining me and I don’t feel comfortable with.

I completely understand the way you feel about this. I have a chronic illness myself and know all about the thought=feeling that 'this is limiting'. On the other hand it is possible to see the raw sensations of pain-in-stomach and whilst this is not 'me' and not 'mine' it is still part of life.

Look for the owner of the sensations. Agata I'm not suggesting this is very easy but if there can be focus on looking directly at the pain without backing away from it or feeling tense about it this can help a lot.

love,

Jon

[Aspera]

Hi Jon

It seems an irony that the impulse is to push such experience away but can the entity to whom all this is happening even be found?

No such entity can not be found.But when identification is so strong, it seems like if things were done differently in the past, the current circumstances would make this imaginary entity, this 'i' happier.

Is there any control over when this identification happens?

No, it happens randomly.

Is there any control, do you find, over the moment that re-awakening (to seeing that there is no self) happens?

No, there is no control.

Is there one that 'goes to sleep' then? Is there one that 'wakes up' again? Or do these phases both just happen?

There is noone falling asleep and noone waking up, its just one moment we are caught up in a story of 'i' and in another moment we can detach and.

Look for the owner of the sensations. Agata I'm not suggesting this is very easy but if there can be focus on looking directly at the pain without backing away from it or feeling tense about it this can help a lot.

The owner isnt there. The tightness in the neck and chest can be felt. I guess it is inevitable to sometimes to feel bitterness, self-pitty and limiting feels regarding this but it is much easier to let these feelings arise and not cling to them/think 'poor me' and so on. Thank you very much for sharing, this is really really helpful.

Love

Agata


Love

Agata

[JonathanR]

Hi Agata,

Thank you very much for sharing, this is really really helpful.

I'm delighted :-)

I am away from home until Sunday evening and it is late to post this evening. I will post tomorrow.



love,

Jon.

[JonathanR]

Hi Agata,

The owner isnt there. The tightness in the neck and chest can be felt. I guess it is inevitable to sometimes to feel bitterness, self-pitty and limiting feels regarding this but it is much easier to let these feelings arise and not cling to them/think 'poor me' and so on. Thank you very much for sharing, this is really really helpful.

Wow! As I read this again I am struck by how true it is. You are right. The owner isn't there!

It is great that you have been able to see these feelings arise and yet not to cling to them. And I guess that sometimes even the clinging will happen (or appear to)... So what? Thoughts or emotions may appear, but no-one is at home to react very much...until it seems there may be someone reacting...until, wait, no-one is 'there' to 'react'...

Tell me how things have been going the past couple of days? Has this looking at pain and for the owner of pain continued? What is the experience now?


thanks,

Jon

[Aspera]

Hi Jon

It is great that you have been able to see these feelings arise and yet not to cling to them. And I guess that sometimes even the clinging will happen (or appear to)... So what? Thoughts or emotions may appear, but no-one is at home to react very much...until it seems there may be someone reacting...until, wait, no-one is 'there' to 'react'...

Tell me how things have been going the past couple of days? Has this looking at pain and for the owner of pain continued? What is the experience now?

Blimey, there is noone there reacting indeed. Its just the sensation of anger or other emotion my linger , there may be more intensive cluster of thoughts surrounding the event. But i understand how saying 'i reacted' to something is no accurate, as then that 'i' would also be able to choose the reaction but often this reaction is in fact spontaneous.

It feels like when the pain/emotion is given space to manifest and it is not being rejected or pushed away, it is not so intense anymore. For instance, I don't have designated parking slot outside my house and a one way system, often i end up doing a few loops around the block to park my car. That often would cause a lot of frustration, but somehow it is softened now, the annoying feelings not arise at all or it may arise but not so intense anymore. Of course at times i still feel like there is an owner to my pain but like you say - 'so what?' I do feel a sense of more freedom and easy in general and in situations which are a bit more difficult like work i find just a bit more space to be at peace with my experience rather than resistance.

There are still judging thoughts 'I' often believes in, like ' is this really that simple?' , ' am i doing this right', 'i' am identified with but here again i guess the trick is not to judge 'i' for them and create a second loop of negative thoughts and even if the judgment comes let it be as it can not harm..

Feel really blessed to be able to explore this with you

Love

Agata

[JonathanR]

Hi Agata,

Blimey, there is noone there reacting indeed. Its just the sensation of anger or other emotion my linger , there may be more intensive cluster of thoughts surrounding the event. But i understand how saying 'i reacted' to something is no accurate, as then that 'i' would also be able to choose the reaction but often this reaction is in fact spontaneous.

So true.

Of course at times i still feel like there is an owner to my pain but like you say - 'so what?' I do feel a sense of more freedom and easy in general and in situations which are a bit more difficult like work i find just a bit more space to be at peace with my experience rather than resistance.

That's very good. I'm so glad this is happening.

And you mention resistance. Once a story of 'me' is appearing and there is some identification going on then resistance can also appear. Resistance is quite interesting and deceptive because it really seems to suggest that there must be a 'me' to 'feel resistance'?

There are still judging thoughts 'I' often believes in, like ' is this really that simple?'

Ha ha ha. :-) Crazily, it does seem to be this simple. And such thoughts or doubts may well appear... to be seen as thoughts appearing, but who/what thought them up?

Feel really blessed to be able to explore this with you

Well the feeling is mutual Agata. It's a pleasure. This is why I guide, becasue it is such a pleasure when someone finds this kind of freedom.

Do you feel you have seen through personal, separate 'self'? Is there one to be found in experience, anywhere?


Love

Jon

[Aspera]

Hi Jon

Resistance is quite interesting and deceptive because it really seems to suggest that there must be a 'me' to 'feel resistance

Yes that's a good point, I guess 'resistance' is similar to 'reaction'. Its a feeling we label 'resistance'

but who/what thought them up?

the thought just came in, there is no source that can be identified in experience

Do you feel you have seen through personal, separate 'self'? Is there one to be found in experience, anywhere?

I have discovered that 'I' does not exist the way we are tought it exists. The thoughts are not 'my' thoughts, the emotions are not 'my' emotions. And it is not easy for the mind to comprehend it as I don't think it is able to. It is in the moments when I'm really still and present and 'drop back' to whatever is in front of me, I feel that what we discuss here is experienced. At the moment I feel there are these 'enlightened moments' when there is deep calm and I somewhat feel my presence. I guess the next step is to anchor that , practice it more so that it stabilises in my experience.

With love

Agata

[JonathanR]

Hi Agata,

I have discovered that 'I' does not exist the way we are tought it exists. The thoughts are not 'my' thoughts, the emotions are not 'my' emotions. And it is not easy for the mind to comprehend it as I don't think it is able to. It is in the moments when I'm really still and present and 'drop back' to whatever is in front of me, I feel that what we discuss here is experienced. At the moment I feel there are these 'enlightened moments' when there is deep calm and I somewhat feel my presence. I guess the next step is to anchor that , practice it more so that it stabilises in my experience.

Excellent.

Maybe allow it or notice it ? After all there is a sort of dilemma in that there isn't really a 'you' that can, as a separate entity, 'practice' this . Where would the anchor reside?

But you're right too. There is an unfolding of all this. A dropping back to whatever IS, in the moment. And what at first appears new and possibly tentative does stabilise.

I have three questions for you this evening, if you are ready?

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2)Please explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now as if to someone who had never heard of noself before?

3)How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

love,

Jon

[JonathanR]

Hello Agata,

How is it going?

Did you have time to look at my recent post?

Love

Jon.

[Aspera]

Hi Jon

Sorry, have been out of touch, had to do work at the weekend and didn't have a chance to respond yet.

I'll respond later today!

Love

Agata