Point me to the truth :)

[Wesley]

Hi Kay, I worked on the questions this evening but I didnt get finished, its back to work tomorrow and I need to get to bed. I'll finish them up tomorrow evening and post em up! Love, Wes

[Wesley]

Hello Kay, Here are my answers.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

No, a seperate existing self cannot be found anywhere. It's existence is nothing more than an idea, a thought. There is a detailed group of thoughts that make up a story about a self along with continual arising thoughts about me/self etc. and this is all that can be found. Attributes that a self would have to have, to be a self, cannot be found, not even one. The self never did exist.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now.

Well it seems to be due to language and how thoughts appear and what they say. Thoughts take the form of spoken language mainly and this in itself breaks up experience into 'things' that do this or that. A baby before learning to speak has no idea of separateness, it makes sense that thought before language is learned would be in images only. As language is learned thought naturally starts taking this form. The baby is given a name and this label distuinguishes him from others, he learns to speak, which is learning to label objects initially, then more and more complex combinations of expereinces are labeled, and it grows from there..experience is broken up and grouped together into various combinations each given their own label, definition, function, purpose, value etc. etc. One of the ideas that is given a label, definition, function, purpose, value etc is the self. The actuality of the self being an idea is lost somewhere in this process, probably very early(maybe it was never seen as an idea, just as reality), along with much of the rest of these ideas. Ideas/thoughts are considered real and existing. This idea of thoughts/ideas (including self) being real is continually reinforced by the nature of arising thoughts being in the form of language because a subject and object are always implied and a vast majority of thoughts use I, me, mine, myself etc. adding that personal touch. There are other factors such as a separate self is pretty much universally accepted to be a fact, and society functions around this idea.

3) How does it feel to see this?

Not really sure yet, it is good to see the truth and know it.

What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
Please report from the past few days.

Nothing is really different, there is just seeing what is and what isn't and the ability learned from this process to look if something isn't clear. A lot of what was imagined to be real is seen to be imagination. There is more curiosity about what is present here and now, which was always here, but there is a newness about it and thought is less heavy, but it is still there saying what it usually says.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

It was gradual, effort was made to look every time. Many times thoughts would say an exercise was 'silly' 'waste of time' 'that's obvious, no need to look' but there always was something seen regardless of what thought says! A little was chipped away at a time and it eventually became obvious.

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.

These are all ideas with no basis in reality. Decision is the idea that through the process of thinking various pros and cons are weighed against each other and a certain choice is made based on how this thinking shakes out. The illusion is just that, the thought I just stated, it seems there is a process..a person could sit down and make lists and give an appearant order to the thoughts then more thoughts arise around the list. When the process is finished the so called decision is just another thought arising from nowhere in the end! Is that final thought even the decision? The action following this decision does not always line up, sometimes what is called a last minute change of mind is made, or I went with my gut.
Intention is the idea that 'I am going to do something'..this is just a thought arising on its own from nothing.
freewill is the idea that 'I am free to choose my own path' this is also just a thought arising on its own from nowhere.
Choice is when thought says 'I choose this from among these options' again this is just an arising thought and the so called action does not always align with the thought. Or the thought comes after the action sometimes.
Control is the idea that 'I' direct/manipulate something else. There is no 'I' and no something else to be controlled.

What makes things happen? How does it work?

I don't know what makes things happen or how it works and not knowing is just fine. It just happens, there is constant movement, appearing, disappearing. Best analogy I can come up with is that it flows like a river, it twists, it turns, it falls, it pools, it is calm, it crashes etc, just happening.

What are you responsible for?

There is no me to be responsible. Things got done when it was believed there was a self and will continue to get done. Who is responsible for the trees? For making sure the sun rises and sets? I see that (life?/what this is) takes care of itself, and it's pretty amazing really.

Give examples from experience.

The first time I really noticed there was no controller was while I was driving, little adjustments continually being made at the wheel to keep the car travelling straight, slowing down, stopping, accelerating and all the little details that are done during driving just happening automatically, no thought involved. Thoughts are still present that say 'I will do this' 'I have to do that' or 'I am doing...' and this is fine there is no expectation that will go away, and it doesn't need to, however I have seen clearly that there is no decision maker, no doer, no initiator of anything. It all just happens.

I woke up this morning without deciding to do so.

I just took a sip of my drink without deciding to.

For me the seeing that thoughts are not connected to anything was key, along with looking at simple actions and noticing they happen without intention, decision, choice or even a thought about it at times. Sometimes there is thought about an action that is done and sometimes there isn't, and sometimes there is thought about doing an action and there is no action. A thought can arise at any time saying anything.

6) Anything to add?

This is coming up so I'll throw it in..How exceedingly difficult and impossible would life be if there was truly a self in control? Just the idea of controlling the body..Proper thoughts would have to somehow be manufactured to relay the messages to the body to look, to take a step, to balance, to scan the environment around you, this would have to be thorough because if a pot hole is found in the path it must be studied via the scanning apparatus so detailed thoughts can be manufactured to relay the information to the body to maneuver around the hazard..lift the right foot approx. 8", move it 18" in the three o'clock direction, eyes are getting dry, blink now, shift weight to the right, place right foot on the ground.... That is a ridiculous example but even assuming the body could get along pretty well with simple commands, or even if the self was the body, the sheer difficulty of controlling it is mind boggling, flying a helicopter would be a piece of cake compared to it. What would controlling a body thats controlling a helicopter be like?

much love, Wes

[forgetmenot]

Hi Wes!

Thoroughly enjoyed reading your post!

This is coming up so I'll throw it in..How exceedingly difficult and impossible would life be if there was truly a self in control? Just the idea of controlling the body..Proper thoughts would have to somehow be manufactured to relay the messages to the body to look, to take a step, to balance, to scan the environment around you, this would have to be thorough because if a pot hole is found in the path it must be studied via the scanning apparatus so detailed thoughts can be manufactured to relay the information to the body to maneuver around the hazard..lift the right foot approx. 8", move it 18" in the three o'clock direction, eyes are getting dry, blink now, shift weight to the right, place right foot on the ground.... That is a ridiculous example but even assuming the body could get along pretty well with simple commands, or even if the self was the body, the sheer difficulty of controlling it is mind boggling, flying a helicopter would be a piece of cake compared to it. What would controlling a body thats controlling a helicopter be like?

Priceless! Thank you for the mental image and the deep belly laugh.

Okay...so now I am going to ask the other guides to have a look at your thread to make sure I haven't missed anything and that 'seeing' is happening clearly! They may or may not have further questions for you. If there are no further questions, Werner from LU will add you to the LU Aftercare FB group.

It has been an absolute pleasure walking with you through the 'gate'.

Much love, Kay

[forgetmenot]

Hi Wes,

A couple of questions for you.

1. In Q3 " it is good to see the truth and know it." Could you please talk about: how is it known that this is the truth?

2. Is a distinction made between different sphere of experience ie seeing versus hearing versus sensing versus thinking or are they experienced as a seamless whole ? And to whom do these appear to " ?

Love, Kay

[Wesley]

Hi Kay,

Thank you for these questions.

1. In Q3 " it is good to see the truth and know it." Could you please talk about: how is it known that this is the truth?

Looking at this statement, it's pretty ambiguious and taken at face value it's quite a strong statement. There was a poor choice of words used, but I'm glad it happened and that the question was asked because looking at this was great.

'The truth' is a concept only, it is not real, there are innumerable ideas of what the truth is and they're all different.

'Know'.Well, to know or knowing is also an idea. Without thought there is no knowing as far as this is knowledge that I have. For the sake of communication in actual experience there is knowing/known (I like how Kay put it) but it is not a standalone thing, it's not information that is understood or that something has. There is knowing of color because color is present right now, or better, there is knowing as color, there is knowing as sensation, sound, taste smell and thoughts. It is known that all of this is here. It is not known what this is though.

To clarify then, right now as I see it, nothing can be known except what is here before any thought about it. And this is knowing that this is present, because it is present, but not knowing what this is.

What I was referring to by what I said was the truth (is it a fact) of an existing self or not. There is an idea I had of what the self is, it was a bunch of thoughts and stories about 'me', there is the knowing of what this self is in thought, there's no confusion concerning what the self idea entails. After looking many times it was seen that there is not one iota of this idea of the self found to exist, except in thought. The issue is settled, there is no reason to continue to look for it anymore. 'Know it' was really meant more as a sense of finality. I don't know right now what will need to be looked at in the future, maybe there will be subtler aspects of the self, or other things, I don't know. There will be no need to look for the self though.

2. Is a distinction made between different sphere of experience ie seeing versus hearing versus sensing versus thinking or are they experienced as a seamless whole ? And to whom do these appear to " ?

No, before thought says this is different from that and labels the sphere of experience there is no separation. It is all experienced as a seamless whole. They appear to no one. Experience-er, experiencing and experienced are the same.
Love, Wes

[forgetmenot]

Hi Wes,

There are no further questions...welcome to the 'other side' of the Gateless Gate! :)

Werner, from LU will add you to the LU Aftercare FB group and I look forward to meeting you there. Once you have found your feet (haha...gotta love language!) you might like to consider becoming a guide yourself. There is always a call for more guides and it is a great way of paying the 'freedom' forward.

Once again, it has been an absolute pleasure walking with you through the Gate.

Much love, Kay