Clarity

[Dale Marie]

just stay with what can be experienced directly with the senses.

How do you know you are aware of something?

When there is wind and it is felt by the body - There is awareness of it.
When the eyes are focused on something - there is awareness of that something.
Am "I" aware? I would say awareness happens.
There is no "I" - but there is a sense of I or isness I-ssss -ness
There is an Isness - Am "I"/Me perceiving it? Is something perceiving Isness? It seems so.

[Ghata]

Dear Dale,

lovely looking :-)

When there is wind and it is felt by the body - There is awareness of it.

Right. This is a very good description of the direct experience of awareness: sensations are the direct experience of awareness.

Am "I" aware? I would say awareness happens. There is no "I" - but there is a sense of I or isness I-ssss -ness
There is an Isness - Am "I"/Me perceiving it? Is something perceiving Isness? It seems so.

Yes! :-)


Here is an experiment:
Sit quietly and listen to the sounds coming in. You can also put on some music.

Thoughts will start to label sound: traffic, motorbyke, child, dog...

Go beyond those labels. What is sound when experiencing it directly?
Where is the sound? Inside? Outside?
Where is the border between inside and outside?
When experiencing sound directly, is there a hearer and the heard or just hearing?


Share what you find.

Much love,
Ghata

[Dale Marie]

Hello Ghata,

Where is the sound? Inside? Outside?
Where is the border between inside and outside?
When experiencing sound directly, is there a hearer and the heard or just hearing?

Sounds seem to comes from "over there", but when to hear them they seem to be in the head.
I do not notice a border between inside or outside because sound and hearing happen at the same time.
So there is just hearing.

I have a question.
Somewhere during our discussions I think you said thoughts are real. At one point you explained what real is - it something that the 5 senses experience. A thought is not of the 5 senses. I could of misunderstood what you said. But if so - how can thoughts be real?

[Ghata]

Dear Dale,

excellent watching of the sound! :-)

Please do tell me, is there a hearer and the heard, or just hearing. Tune into sounds again and look for the answer.

Somewhere during our discussions I think you said thoughts are real. At one point you explained what real is - it something that the 5 senses experience. A thought is not of the 5 senses. I could of misunderstood what you said. But if so - how can thoughts be real?

Great question!

The word "real" is a pointer because only in the world of senses can the gate be found. Thoughts are real in the sense that they can be noticed.

A lot could be said about reality but that is a different topic.

When you think of a spoon, the spoon would be the content of a thought (one of your first experiments). You can see it, feel it, eat from it...in thoughts.
But you will not be able to eat your soup with it, it existed only in imagination.

How are decisions made? What do you say about free will?

Much love,
Ghata

[Dale Marie]

Please do tell me, is there a hearer and the heard, or just hearing. Tune into sounds again and look for the answer.

Hi Ghata, I did answer, this is what I saw >

So there is just hearing.

I have to go out now so I will respond to the rest later.
Thank you!

[Ghata]

Dear Dale,

Hi Ghata, I did answer, this is what I saw > So there is just hearing.

So sorry!

I am looking forward to your next reply.

Much love,
Ghata

[Dale Marie]

Hi Ghata,

How are decisions made? What do you say about free will?

Thoughts as choices seems to appear often in mental world. (lol) Example: Should I do this or should I do that? - what should I say to that person, should I say anything? The choice thoughts are really question thoughts.
So say a question comes up "What should I wear" The thoughts start spinning, the feeling arises of sometimes a fear - Like I cant make a choice or the choices that come up are not satisfactory. I mean it can feel like a battle ground! hahaha
Then a choice is made, and I can see that many of them it would not matter of any choice that is chosen. But say a "choice" of I better leave now, or I will be late for work - feels like a practical choice, if I want to get paid.

So is there free will? Can there be a choice, say of - I can stay and argue with this person or I can walk away.
Am "I" making a choice out of free will? There does appear something (thoughts thinking about thoughts) that is mulling over all these choices. There is a sensation of "I" - the "I" word - is a word...

the definition of "I": used as the subject of a verb to refer to the person speaking or writing:

I will say honestly that I dont know if there is free will. Sometimes I think there is a form of free will. Is this body known as Dale making it? Well the body is not making it - it is the invisible thoughts appearing to make choices.

lol sorry such a long answer - but this is the answer then:

it is the invisible thoughts appearing to make choices.

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[Ghata]

Dear Dale,

I loved your answers and especially the answer "I don't know." Often it is the best answer. :-)

it is the invisible thoughts appearing to make choices.

Yes, perfectly right!

Can you say, with a big fat YES, it's clear that I, a separate being is an illusion?
If not, what is unclear? What is the doubt?

If yes, are you ready for the final questions?

This will not mean that now you're left to your own. We have facebook-groups where you can continue to explore. I will be there for you as well.

Much love,
Ghata

[Dale Marie]

Hi Ghata, I am going on a rant with this question, so I can see for myself. ( But who wants to see for itself? - This is my hang up)

Can you say, with a big fat YES, it's clear that I, a separate being is an illusion?
If not, what is unclear? What is the doubt?

I feel like Life is happening, this "Dale" person is part of happening. It still feels personal much of the time. Meaning it feels like there is a Me that it is happening to. Actually a me that is happening with it. There is an intellectual thing happening, meaning it feels like there is learning. Learning actually that the world is created by thoughts. And thoughts are not real, though when there is attachment to thoughts we think it is real. Like for example me being here and answering these questions. Nisargadatta said when his students asked then if you are not here how are you answering our questions. He said in short - questions arise and answer arise. I am not doing anything.

that I, a separate being is an illusion?

I believe that there is some sort of creator - a creator of thoughts. I can definitely see that I am not creating them.
But for some reason there is the feeling of a personal "I" that wants to take credit for seeing though the illusion! lol haha -
I think that thought arises (wanting to take credit) because of the so called searching I felt I have been doing for my whole life. And the idea that seeing beyond the illusion takes a lot of effort and diligence (This is what I have heard many times) Even though I have seen that this searching was not created by me - It just happened without any choice.... I guess I want to know if it is not me then "what is searching and why?" Who or what keeps asking why? Why is there something that wants to take credit for the journey? Why is that such a strong illusion to let go of?

I have heard of other cultures who do not use the word "I" - there is doing - there is driving, there is thinking, there is eating, but they dont say I am doing these things.
It actually feels like a habit - something "learned" in our culture. You are, you do.

Interesting - I have seen there is no I/Me, I can look at myself and others and see that we are not doing the thinking. I can not know what thought is going to come. No one can. - But there is something that this is happening to. Or happening with. Everything arises out of nothing. And there is a witness to it that appears to be me. Or there is witnessing.
whew.. I do not know if I answered the question.

Is there a "me" doer of this - I will say No - I am not the doer. It is happening. There is no personal I doing this. - But is there a personal I witnessing this? It does feel focused to a me. Meaning - I feel that I can see this and some others can not. - But I did not do this. It is like there are players out there in what appears to be in my reality. And we have different thoughts that effect the "personal" game. But it is like the thoughts are given to us - We do not think them.

Okay - I think I got it! lol -

it's clear that I, a separate being is an illusion?

I do not know. I do see that we are not the doers. Life happens and thoughts arise about it. Or I would even say thoughts arise and life happens!
There are 7 billion actors - (even though this is just something we Heard - I have personally never seen 7 billion people) So 7 billion individual actors/people - or receivers of thoughts. There are people that individual thoughts come to.

oh boy I am going to stop there - There are individuals - but they are not the creators of thinking.

[Ghata]

Dear Dale,

thank you for your rant :-). Thoughts are definitely trying to figure out what is happening. It reminds me a bit of little children. Around 3 yrs. they ask all these questions: Why does the sun shine. Why is the sky there? Why do flowers have blossoms?

And thoughts would so much like to play the I-game again, this time creating a glitzy, shiny, enlightened I :-).

I do see that we are not the doers. Life happens and thoughts arise about it. Or I would even say thoughts arise and life happens.

Right!

Is there a separate self, a general manager, pulling the strings for that to happen?

But who wants to see for itself? - This is my hang up

Instead of asking, "Who wants to see for itself", ask:

"Does anybody want to see for itself?" Have a good look. Can you find an I, a me who wants to see?

Is there a me, an I, to which life happens? Look directly, don't think about it.


Also watch thoughts attentively. Is there a creator of thoughts to be found? Or a watcher of thoughts?

Much love,
Ghata

[Dale Marie]

Can you find an I, a me who wants to see?

No

Is there a me, an I, to which life happens? Look directly, don't think about it.

No

Also watch thoughts attentively. Is there a creator of thoughts to be found? Or a watcher of thoughts?

No

Hello Ghata - when you said Look directly dont think about it ( I see I was thinking and could not answer) - There is Not an I or Me around anywhere -
Just thoughts of an I or me - And thoughts are not me - just word labels.
Okay got it! Again lol
Ready for the Last question!

[Ghata]

Dear Dale,

Sweet :-).

Here they are. Again answer from direct experience, not from thinking.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Please try to describe the process as best you can, even if gropingly. Don't forget to give some practical examples from your everyday experience (even if there is no real 'you). What are you responsible for?"

6) Anything to add?

Please answer in full, when ready.

Much love,
Ghata

[Dale Marie]

Thank you Ghata,

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own
experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

It starts with thinking, right from the "I" thought, the "I" thought, says there is me looking at that. I am looking.
Without the "I" thought there is just looking, looking and seeing become one

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

In the moment of seeing this it feels like peace, oneness. Then there is the experience of thoughts arising wanting to use the word "I" - For example, "I" want to take ownership of this experience.
The difference before this dialogue is, the forgetting that there is not a separate "I" and the experience of thinking thoughts are mine and there is control over them. There is the experience now of uneasiness that there is no"I" that does anything.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

Great example of what is going on!

And thoughts would so much like to play the I-game again, this time creating a glitzy, shiny, enlightened I :-).

These are wonderful question that made me look again:

Instead of asking, "Who wants to see for itself", ask:

"Does anybody want to see for itself?" Have a good look. Can you find an I, a me who wants to see?

Is there a me, an I, to which life happens? Look directly, don't think about it.

Also watch thoughts attentively. Is there a creator of thoughts to be found? Or a watcher of thoughts?

The feeling to read and answer these questions often might be the key . :-)

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Please try to describe the process as best you can, even if gropingly. Don't forget to give some practical examples from your everyday experience (even if there is no real 'you). What are you responsible for?"

I realize that I did not even decide to be born! lol There is no me who said - or had a choice. There is no me that is "born." ----
-- OH a thought just arise that said, "you are confusing or mistaking intimacy with a separate self." - I was thinking, but I am so connected with life, how can there not me a me - and then this came - "you are confusing or mistaking intimacy with a separate self." wow! Life and intimacy with it are One! So in a way it could be said "I" is intimacy - nothing separate. No separate "I" no separate Me- It is the experience of intimacy with Life.

So say I decide that I want to build a house. Do I have a choice? When looked at closely I see a thought arise "should I build a house" That thought just came out of nowhere - I can see that I do not, or am not the creator of thoughts. Is there a Me, that these thoughts come to? No- So there is No separate me that is in control of anything.
I am not responsible for thoughts, or anyone elses thoughts.
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I would like to Add this.
We are taught that we are responsible for everything! For example, someone might say to me - they way you talk to that person makes them feel bad. So it really does feel like a decision is made to either change the way I talk to that person, or a decision to not care and not change. All the new age teachings are about Self responsibility! For example the world is the way it is because we do not take responsibility for our actions. If we want a better world - we have to change how we think, what we believe. There is the saying of we have been living life as "War Consciousness" meaning us against, Waring, fighting. - Instead of Unity Consciousness.

This is the hardest thing for me - the feeling that it is up to us to change, and be responsible for ourselfs and actions if there is to me a better world. But when clearly looked at - I can see that this is all just happening - when change occurs - it just occurs - there is the appearance of "Us" changing, doing things different. And now there is wondering why is this idea that we need to change so prevalent! lol - The kid asking question again.

What has been noticed, is that when there is the thought of a personal "I" - there comes with that judgements of life, and questions.

Ghata, may I ask, how does one stay in this knowing/direct seeing? Is it a continual process?
It seems if these questions can stay in awareness, would be the "how" to do this"
Instead of asking, "Who wants to see for itself", ask:

"Does anybody want to see for itself?" Have a good look. Can you find an I, a me who wants to see?

Is there a me, an I, to which life happens? Look directly, don't think about it.

Also watch thoughts attentively. Is there a creator of thoughts to be found? Or a watcher of thoughts?

[Dale Marie]

Dear Ghata, After all that written above- This came:

Our experience of reality is lived from inside our mind! - It is not happening Out there - It is happening inside here (The Head behind the eyes) This includes thoughts, and visions that can trigger a body reaction.

All all the questions still are valid. There is no personal"I" doing this - There is no personal Me responsible for thoughts and visions, I do not control them, there is not an "I" that can know what thought or vision will come next.. All is just happening. There is notice of thoughts an reactions - But there is no Me in the control of them.

It is funny to see that when the question is ask - do you know what your next thought will be - the mind goes blank!

[Dale Marie]

Edit: Visions seem to happen inside the head behind the eyes - along with thoughts somewhere in the head. But honestly all I can say is that where ever I am, thoughts are. Not sure where they "reside." And I have no idea of
what an "I" is.!